Voyager - By Diana Gabaldon

Please discuss Outlander, Dragonfly in Amber and Voyager ONLY in this thread. Thanks!
The SPOILER Thread can be found here.

PART 9 – Worlds Unknown
CHAPTER 56 – Turtle Soup

Claire wakes with aches and fever and realizes that she must use some of the penicillin she has. Crossing the room to get it taxes her strength and Jamie comes in looking worried. She tells him he has the chance for revenge for her sticking him with needles back at Lallybroch, but Jamie can’t quite bring himself to do it, despite knowing that it will only hurt briefly and will help in the long run. Claire sticks herself in the leg and then Jamie helps her press the plunger after her thumb slips.

They have an interesting conversation about bravery: Does it take more to hurt someone to save their life or to kill someone to save your own? Would you be brave enough to do dangerous things if you felt you had a choice about whether or not to do them?

Then, Claire tells Jamie about a man named Graham Menzies who was a cancer patient she treated in Boston. Like many Scots she met during the Rising, he had a sense of humor and didn’t complain about pain, but eventually, he made it clear that he would prefer to have her help him end his life sooner rather than lingering. She manipulated his morphia ampules to provide a large dose and then sat with him until he died. She wasn’t meant to stay, but since she did, a nurse discovered her there and although no one could prove that Claire assisted his death, she was offered a management position that would keep her away from patients, as well as a leave of absence. That was what sent her to Scotland with Brianna, where they met Roger and discovered that Jamie survived Culloden.

Claire asks Jamie what he wants to do after they find Ian. He can’t go back to Scotland any time soon (because of Sir Percival), nor can he stay in Jamaica or the English-owned islands (because of Leonard), so she asks if he’s considered the American Colonies. Jamie is concerned that the Colonies are very primitive with cannibalistic Iroquois. Claire assures him that there are towns, some big enough to need a printer and Jamie still has his press in Edinburgh. Then, they discuss how they each worry about the other killing himself/herself from carelessness and how they realize there is nothing either can do about it. Jamie concludes that it doesn’t matter as long as he can love her.

After sleeping for several hours, Claire awakens hungry and Jamie feeds her turtle soup made for her by Murphy. Stern caught the turtle and saved the shell for Claire to make hair combs with. Claire asks about Ishmael and Jamie says he has a hammock on deck and Fergus is watching him. When she points out that Fergus is on his honeymoon, Jamie says “And they do say that abstinence makes the heard grow firmer, no?” and Claire corrects the statement and says that it’s not the heart that grows firmer. Jamie indicates that he is having firmness issues himself and Claire says that she is feeling much better. He objects because someone might come in and he wouldn’t take advantage of a woman who is wounded, feverish and drunk (thanks to Murphy’s soup) and Claire tells him to bolt the door and takes matters into her own hands (and other things).

Having Claire, in her feverish state, be the warmer of the couple is unusual for them both. Lawrence Stern comes to the door and he and Jamie proceed to have a conversation through the door (about relieving Fergus from guard duty, the turtle, the rough seas) reminiscent of Bill Clinton’s conversation in the presence of Monica Lewinsky. In the end (and a rather satisfying end it was for them both ), Claire’s fever breaks and she goes back to sleep while Jamie leaves to tell Murphy she liked the soup.



- Jamie’s unwillingness to take advantage of Claire in a weakened condition, despite his obvious desire reminded me of when she was pregnant in Dragonfly and she also took matters into her own hands then. Very sweet of him and very considerate of her.

- Interesting that now Jamie and Claire have each needed penicillin to treat infections in arm wounds. I’m not sure I realized before how parallel the situations are since it’s the same body part.

- What do you think about their discussion of bravery and what types of actions take more of it than others?

- What about the question of choice? Did Jamie have a choice about his past actions, many of which put him (and others, like Claire and Fergus) into danger? Is this really the first time he has a true choice about what he wants to do with his life (and where)?

- What do you think about Claire’s choice to help Graham Menzies end his life; and the choice to stay with him to the end, which was the thing that led to her getting sort of caught? If that hadn’t happened, do you think she still would have taken Brianna to Scotland and found out that Jamie survived Culloden? If she didn’t go back through time to Jamie, what do you think might have happened in terms of her career? Could you see Claire in a management position away from patients? Do you think she could have found a way to be trusted with patients at that hospital or another? Could she be happy without practicing medicine with patients in some form?

- Do you think Lawrence knew (or suspected) what was going on inside the cabin during his conversation?

- Has anyone ever eaten turtle soup? If so, was it good? Did it affect you in the way Murphy’s soup affected Claire?

If I remember correctly, it wasn't just a matter of Claire's going to scotland with Brianna, but the fact of her being at a sort of a crossroad in her life because of what had happened at the hospital, that pushed her to the decision of going back to look for Jamie. I thought the question which even Claire didn't know the answer to, was if she would have gone back even if her career and life were flourishing and she found out that Jamie had survived Culloden. Would she then have given up everything and gone back? Anyway, when I read the chapter it quite bothered me to think that maybe she wouldn't have gone back if things were different with her life.

I liked the comparison with Bill Clinton and Monika Lewinsky

I didn't get the impression Lawrence suspected anything. I don't think he would have lingered so long if he had, he seemed like a nice person.

I've personally never eaten or even been near turtle soup. It seems quite icky to me. Correct me if your experience has been different

Wow Riki! I didn't realize that you were up to Voyager (or maybe I've just forgotten?).

Anyway, that's a really interesting question about whether Claire would have gone back to try to find Jamie (with the possibility of failing to do so), if everything was going swimmingly in her 20th century life and career. I'm not sure we, or she, could ever know except in the sense that DG wouldn't have had the story to write if she hadn't so of course she did.

I wasn't sure about Lawrence. In general, I think he's a nice guy who wouldn't want to intrude, but a couple of times I was wondering if he was intentionally prolonging the conversation as sort of a joke/teasing thing. Because really, if Claire were sleeping, would Jamie have continued the conversation through the door at what was necessarily a higher volume than there would be if he slipped into the hall to chat with Lawrence? Still not sure.

I've never had turtle soup either, but maybe someone else will pop in and tell us how it is.

Hi ABL, I've actually finished Voyager and have now gone onto the LJ books, trying to stick to the order recommended on the forum although at first it was difficult to resist the temptation to continue to Drums of autumn. Of course LJ is not Jamie & Claire but I'm quite enjoying it, I like LJ as a character very much.

I still can't get over the fact that J & C are twenty years older. Although I'm enjoying the books I already feel nostalgic about Outlander when they were young, but anyway I'm hooked

Yes, I have had turtle soup. Tastes like chicken. Really. Dark meat.

Thanks for the info Janet. I suppose we should have guessed it would taste like chicken. Doesn't everything?

Riki - Glad you are hooked. I actually read the Lord John books later (probably after Breath of Snow and Ashes), but by doing it this way you get to savor having new Jamie and Claire stories to read for a longer time. That's got to be a silver lining, right? I love Lord John.

(Sorry, couldn't quite make the quote format correctly!)

Good questions! I think Claire's actions would have been unheard of for a doctor in the '60's, when the topic of assisted suicide hadn't yet been discussed. I believe that Claire's experiences in her "other" life were a major influence in affecting her decision to help Graham. It made me think back to the scene after the boar hunt in Outlander, when Dougal untied the tourniquet and let the man die after being gored, rather than forcing him to endure a painful but inevitable death. After all, surely Claire saw hundreds of wounded soldiers in agony during WWII, but helping them die faster wouldn't have been an option. What she did was clearly mercy for Graham, but also the end of her medical career. Had she not spent time in Jamie's era, I doubt that she could have considered Graham's request. Probably the fact that he was Scottish helped to put her back into the mindset of a different era as well, so that she could allow her 20th century medical ethics to be overshadowed by her 18th century sense of honor and compassion.

No, I can't see Claire being happy as an administrator, without being a hands-on healer. No wonder she headed off to Scotland with Bree!

ABL, their discussion of bravery was very intersting, to me. I thought the discussion about it being easier to hurt someone when you aren't trying to save them (or are trying to kill them) was a bit thought provoking. I would never have thought about that, but if, like Jamie had to do many times to protect himself, you kill someone in defense of your own life you wouldn't be worried about hurting them. On the other hand, if you care about someone and are trying to help them, it would seem that you would try not to cause them more discomfort than they are already experiencing. I don't think Claire meant to demean Jamie, but it seemed to strike his conscience and his thoughts about bravery in killing vs. bravery in hurting someone you are trying to help. It appears as though he feels that Claire's job of healing takes much more courage than what some would consider his acts of bravery. It is mentioned several times that he thinks Claire to be very compassionate, but with the ability to be ruthless in her healing when the need arises. Jamie doesn't consider himself brave, just that he had no choice but to act.

As for Jamie's choice in past actions - I think he did not have a choice for some of them, but others he did; however, I think Jamie felt he had no choice in his actions. He did whatever he had to do to protect those he loved and he could see it no other way. I don't think that he really has a choice now either - again, he will take Claire and Ian into consideration. His choices are never about just himself. Very selfless man!

Don't know if Claire would have taken Brianna to Scotland or not. It seems that she would have eventually, but I definitely think that her work status precipitated the trip. I don't think Claire would ever have been happy in an administrative position. She wanted to heal.

Hmmmmm. I don't know if Lawrence S. knew what was going on in the cabin or not??? If not, he was very dense for a "scientist"!

Lisa - I went ahead and fixed the quote for you.

Lisa and Trudy - I agree that Claire would never have been happy as an administrator. She needs to be directly involved in healing people. So, if she hadn't gone back to Jamie, I'm not sure what her future would have held. Perhaps she would have left Boston to go somewhere else where they wouldn't have the same qualms about her practicing medicine? I can't imagine the hospital people could or would have expressed their doubts about her to a prospective employer.

Trudy - Thanks for your thoughts on bravery and choice. I agree with those too.

What a wonderful chapter review, Audiobooklover!

This is on of my fave chapters, and I've never had turtle soup but after reading this chapter and Janet's description of it (much better than I imagined it might taste!) it would be very interesting to try and see what the results might be - only I wouldn't want to have to be sick to have to try it . I'm not sure if Lawrence ever caught on to what was really happening in the cabin until Jamie's last, terse reply, but if he did, he was very gallant in not letting them know that he did!

Claire's decision to go to Scotland was so complicated - her desire to be where she and Jamie were, to tell Bree her true parentage, Frank's death...and then Graham Menzie's desire to go to Aberdeen/her promise to go there. That must have been the way she rationalized going back, but the fact that she never did shows how all of her other wishes to go there took it over. I loved how Jamie responded to her regret in not having gone, "“Dinna trouble yourself, Sassenach.” Jamie squeezed my hand. “I’ll take ye there myself—when we go back. Not,” he added practically, “that there’s anything to see there.”
Gabaldon, Diana (2004-10-26). Voyager (p. 881). Dell. Kindle Edition.

Thanks NE Mom.

I agree that I hope if I ever get to try turtle soup, that I don't have to be sick first. And, I giggled a bit at Jamie's comment that there was nothing to see in Aberdeen. Of course, if she had gone in the 1960s, there might have been quite a bit more to see.

Turtle Soup is absolutely delicious. It's a deep, flavourful soup similar to a gumbo in texture and taste.
The turtle meat itself is mild, like turkey or dark chicken.

Nola Cuisine Turtle Soup Recipe