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Pauline
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Post subject: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Helwater Posted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:08 pm |
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| Clan Fraser |
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:19 pm Posts: 1612 Location: Rhode Island
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 Courtesy Reminder - Please discuss all books up to and including Voyager only. For discussions including other books in the series, please post in the Spoiler thread. Thanks! The SPOILER Thread can be found here.Voyager, by Diana Gabaldon PART FOUR The Lake District Chapter 14 ~ Geneva
Back in time to Helwater, September 1756.
John has been traveling with a silent Jamie for 4 days and he suggests that Jamie change his name. He explains to Jamie that his new host lost his only son at Prestonpans and John ponders that he would have met the same fate had it not been for his meeting with Jamie in the woods of Carryarrick. Jamie pulls ahead until he doesn’t know which direction to take and waits for John. John sees him in the distance and starts to murmur “O Lucifer, thou son of the morning” to himself but doesn’t finish the quotation. Here’s the full quote:
[color=#4000FF]“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! / For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: / I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” Isaiah 14:12-32
This generally refers to the sin of Pride but it’s a strange reference for John to think of about Jamie. Or is he comparing Jamie to his internal Lucifer/evil feelings. Anyway, we get a glimpse into Jamie’s POV in this chapter. He describes how retched he feels about leaving the Highlands, his men who are being deported to America, and even his physical discomfort in riding a horse after so many years. Jamie is told that he will not be indentured to the Americas and will not be paroled since he is a traitor and imprisoned at the pleasure of the King. Jamie is incensed at his men’s fate but internally grateful not to be put on a boat for thousands of miles, and then shameful of his relief. Jamie realizes that there is a connection to the gold that he discovered and will be interred at a place called Hellwater with Lord Dunsany, and John will visit him quarterly to ‘check on his welfare.’ Jamie imagines killing John in multiple ways during their journey. He sees himself sold as a servant where John can gloat during each visit as John’s revenge. We next meet the Dunsany family and find out that John has pretty much arranged for Jamie to be a groomsman. John has also considered the property with hundreds of acres as better for Jamie than either Ardsmuir or the Colonies. When the girls spy the Huge Scotsman in the hall, Jamie introduces himself as Alex MacKenzie. Jamie settles in and realizes that this is as good a prison as it gets. He finds a way to communicate with Jenny and Ian and carries his wooden rosary beads around his neck with which he prays for Claire and their baby every morning and night. This life could be idyllic except for one person, Lady Geneva, who has taken to following and tormenting poor Jamie. The other grooms start making remarks and he hopes that she will either tire of his inattention or get married soon. One day he is approached by Geneva and Jamie tries to stand among the manure to avoid her. She is in a snit because she is betrothed to an elderly gentleman by the name of Lord Ellesmere. She then tells Jamie that she wants to bed him before she marries this old man. Jamie tells her that he’ll have no part of this until she pulls out her trump card. A letter from Jenny. She agrees to exchange the letter for his services. He agrees and tells her to choose a day that is safe. “ They looked at each other in silence for a long moment suddenly linked by the prospect of the future.” He creeps up to her room and she is waiting in a sheer nightgown, her bridal-night apparel. He asks for the letter before they begin and after an argument, she agrees. She tells him to “ Put that down and come here, Jamie. I’m ready.” He tells her not to use that name with him. “ having brought me to your bed by means of threats against my family, I’ll not have ye call me by the name they give me.” “His traitorous, deprived anatomy didn’t care a whit that she was a selfish, blackmailing little b****” (Diana’s words but I agree.) He lets her explore his body with her hands and she finds all of his scars. He then wants to touch her. Jamie admits that there are a lot of feelings for her but love is not one of them. He admits that he didn’t want to be there but it had been three years since being with a woman. Ok, was it 3 years since Mary MacNab or wasn’t that longer?
Here’s the controversial part. In the middle of ‘the act’ Geneva starts telling him to Stop, Take it Out, It’s too Big, etc. and Jamie just says “No”. When he finishes, she asks him what he’s thinking. She apologizes and tells him that she didn’t realize it would hurt him too. She then expects him to wash her off like a servant. Then she wants him again and tells him “I love you Alex”. Where has Jamie heard THAT before! He explains that love is only for one person and that person for him is Claire. At last he steals out of the castle and back to his loft. “ He lay down in the icy straw and pulled the single blanket over him, feeling empty of everything.” You almost feel like there should be a line about Geneva laying in her warm quilted bed also feeling empty of everything. This chapter incites people against Jamie. No means no, but what about a mutual rape? She doesn’t do to Jamie what BJR did, but emotionally maybe so. After the first encounter, she makes it plain that she wants to go around again and again throughout the night. Can a man who has been celibate this long be expected to pull back at the last second over a word? There is such desolation in Jamie but also in Geneva. Here are 2 people who have been helplessly sold into situations not of their choosing.
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TwilightTINK
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Post subject: Re: Voyager Ch 14 - Hellwater Posted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:07 pm |
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| Clan Fraser |
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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:37 pm Posts: 6535 Location: finding my way to Craigh na Dun
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great summary Pauline!
I have never had a problem with Jamie in the scene with Geneva. It may be wrong to do that now days but we would be applying our standards to a far away time and place. That hardly seems fair. Jamie was blackmailed - pure and simple. In my book, she got what was coming to her. Jamie did what he needed to do to survive.
As for the biblical reference. I have always thought it referred to LJG's personal demons in relation to Jamie.
_________________

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jamie'swife
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Post subject: Re: Voyager Ch 14 - Hellwater Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:09 am |
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| emerald member |
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:22 pm Posts: 273 Location: Northern Illinois
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TwilightTINK wrote:
As for the biblical reference. I have always thought it referred to LJG's personal demons in relation to Jamie. I TOTALLY agree with you, Tink. I held the same thought even the first time I read this passage. [quote="Pauline"] This chapter incites people against Jamie. No means no, but what about a mutual rape? I may be way off base on this one, but I didn't feel that this was rape on Jamie's part for the following reasons: Geneva blackmailed him to have sex with her, and if he even could stop at the last minute, would she blackmail him to come back again? (He had already risked so much by coming to her room at night in the first place, and in his opinion he was in a no-win situation; after Geneva lost her virginity to Jamie, she told him she loved him and wanted to have sex again. If this was a rape, I don't think the victim would have the same feelings toward the rapist as Geneva had for Jamie. At last he steals out of the castle and back to his loft. “He lay down in the icy straw and pulled the single blanket over him, feeling empty of everything.” You almost feel like there should be a line about Geneva laying in her warm quilted bed also feeling empty of everything.I agree with you, Pauline, that both of these characters felt desolation in the situations they were placed, but due to DG's character development of Geneva, I just couldn't feel the same empathy for her that I felt for Jamie because she was portrayed as a person that not only expected, but demanded that things go HER way no matter how it affected others, whereas Jamie tried to do the honorable thing as much as he could, often putting others BEFORE himself.
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Pauline
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Post subject: Re: Voyager Ch 14 - Hellwater Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:23 pm |
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| Clan Fraser |
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Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:19 pm Posts: 1612 Location: Rhode Island
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jamie'swife wrote: At last he steals out of the castle and back to his loft. “He lay down in the icy straw and pulled the single blanket over him, feeling empty of everything.” You almost feel like there should be a line about Geneva laying in her warm quilted bed also feeling empty of everything.
I agree with you, Pauline, that both of these characters felt desolation in the situations they were placed, but due to DG's character development of Geneva, I just couldn't feel the same empathy for her that I felt for Jamie because she was portrayed as a person that not only expected, but demanded that things go HER way no matter how it affected others, whereas Jamie tried to do the honorable thing as much as he could, often putting others BEFORE himself. But think about how she's brought up getting everything she wants and never having to sacrifice herself for anyone. She's been following Jamie around for quite a while and definitely has feelings for him. Now, for the first time in her life she feels that she is being sold off to some old coot and the thought of having him as her first and only sexual experience is making her skin crawl. She wants someone like Jamie if not only him to be that one and goes after it as a means of being able to live with the future that is laid out for her. I think that even Jamie sees her for what she is and has some sympathy for her in the end.
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audiobooklover
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Post subject: Re: Voyager Ch 14 - Hellwater Posted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:23 pm |
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| Clan Fraser |
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:09 pm Posts: 2683
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I never saw this as rape. It was more that she was having a moment of fear since this was new to her - and likely momentarily painful - and Jamie was telling her that she had to just get through that moment and then it would be fine. She had blackmailed him and set the whole thing up, including wine and two glasses and her wedding night apparel, so it would be hard to argue that he forced her into things. And, she was fine with it moments later. I don't think a rape victim would have acted like she did immediately after and for the rest of the night. Like Jamie, I could feel some pity for Geneva, but that doesn't excuse her blackmail and threats to his family. It's not clear that she realized the extent of the threat she was making - I got the impression that she was too immature to have thought through all the consequences of her threatened action - but she was pretty obnoxious in getting what she wanted. A few other random bits: I remember the first time I read the chapter title, wondering whether someone would somehow have ended up in Geneva, Switzerland.  That question was cleared up fairly quickly, though. I found myself wondering what Jamie said to the footman who was so shocked to announce that there was a Scotchman in the hall. But, how else would he have known he was a Scot? Poor Jamie is so lonely.  He hasn't even seemed to fit in with the other grooms or servants all that well. Of course, his distance might make things easier in some ways. And, we know Claire was lonely in her own way during the same time period. But, 
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repoman
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Post subject: Re: Voyager Ch 14 - Hellwater Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:06 am |
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| Clan Fraser |
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:47 am Posts: 1506 Location: Kalamazoo, Michigan
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I am not going to touch the Geneva topic.
This rekilt made me aware that Jamie was not really in Ardsmuir for very long, at least in relation to the term for other men. He arranged his capture sometime in 1753. In September, 1756 he is being paroled to Helwater. To continue this thought, he apparently beds Geneva in May, 1757. Wee William is born in January, 1758 (nine months?). Soon after, he is offered a release from his parole. Jamie's remaining time at Helwater is not Lallybroch, but it is hardly prison either. He works with horses, he has frequent visits with young William, and apparently he is able to earn money.
Did anyone else catch that Lady Dunsany "slips" and gives Lord Dunsany's given name as William also? (That's a teaser for my chapter coming up.)
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TwilightTINK
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Post subject: Re: Voyager Ch 14 - Hellwater Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:13 am |
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| Clan Fraser |
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Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 9:37 pm Posts: 6535 Location: finding my way to Craigh na Dun
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Lisa SF
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:00 pm |
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| sapphire member |
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:43 pm Posts: 839 Location: San Francisco, CA
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I'll chime in too and say that I never saw Jamie's actions as rape. Geneva blackmailed him into her bed. Granted, she was in many ways an innocent girl playing at things she couldn't understand. She called all the shots in the entire scenario, up until that moment when she said "no"... which, not to be too graphic, was a mite late as Jamie was already (cough) past the front gate, so to speak. Really, there's only so much self-restraint you can expect of a man, even one as saintly as Jamie Fraser! All in all, despite his anger and frustration, he treated Geneva with dignity and gentleness, which I'm sure is more than she would have gotten on her wedding night. I have to wonder -- when Jamie told Geneva to make sure to use a day when she'd be safe, did she intentionally choose otherwise? Seeing how calculated she'd been in all her other actions, it wouldn't surprise me. audiobooklover -- LOL. I wondered how Jamie was going to end up in Switzerland the first time I read Voyager. 
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audiobooklover
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:45 pm |
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| Clan Fraser |
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:09 pm Posts: 2683
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Lisa SF wrote: audiobooklover -- LOL. I wondered how Jamie was going to end up in Switzerland the first time I read Voyager.  Glad I wasn't the only one. 
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Laura
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:56 am |
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| Clan Fraser |
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:54 am Posts: 7051 Location: NE Ohio
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Lisa SF wrote: I have to wonder -- when Jamie told Geneva to make sure to use a day when she'd be safe, did she intentionally choose otherwise? Seeing how calculated she'd been in all her other actions, it wouldn't surprise me. This is one conniving action of which we can absolve Geneva: she didn't plan to get pregnant. You can read our previous discussion (it gets juicy!) with links to Diana's posts on the topic here: Subject: VOYAGER: Geneva Dunsany. Please add your thoughts to the thread!
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Lisa SF
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:27 am |
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| sapphire member |
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:43 pm Posts: 839 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Thanks, Laura! I guess when the word comes from Herself, there's no debating it! 
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Laura
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:47 am |
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| Clan Fraser |
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Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:54 am Posts: 7051 Location: NE Ohio
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But it can be more fun when we *don't* know the answer, aye? It's fun to speculate and discuss and hash it all through. There is an event in The Fiery Cross (no spoiler coming) that was so much fun to speculate over and then Diana came out and said exactly who it was and I relieved to know, but at the same time said, 'DANG! Now we can't speculate!' On the flip side, regardless of what Diana might reveal extra-texturally, it is still our individual interpretation of the scenes and characters and these can (and do!) differ from the author's intent. I say, debate away!
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Lisa SF
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 12:35 pm |
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| sapphire member |
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:43 pm Posts: 839 Location: San Francisco, CA
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So happy to hear you say that. I agree completely! Coming up with theories and conjectures is so much fun, and I'm having such a blast seeing what interesting directions my fellow OL fans' thoughts are taking.
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KellyH
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:40 pm |
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| topaz member |
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:06 pm Posts: 77 Location: Elkins, WV
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I know this re-kilt is already done, but I'm very distraught about this and needed someone to talk to about it. The thing that bothered me most about Jamie bedding Geneva is that he called her mo chridhe and mo neghean (page 175). I understand that he is in quite a precarious situation - that he has to please Geneva, is in fact quite lustful for her at this point and still has to worry about whether or not he is going to get caught - but to call her the same tender names he uses for Claire? It makes me wince / want to cry every time I think about it! I've tried to tell myself that he is still the same man who thanked Claire for being so "generous" with him after his first time and so would therefore also try to be tender etc when taking someone else's virginity, BUT (and it's a big ol' BUT at that) this is a woman who is blackmailing him! Lustful as he may be, he could've been gentle etc without using those words of endearment! Or am I just reading entirely too much into this? KellyH
_________________ "I mean to make ye call me 'master', Sassenach." His soft voice was a threat of revenge for the agonies of the last minutes. "I mean to make you mine."
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audiobooklover
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Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 14: Hellwater Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:51 pm |
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| Clan Fraser |
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:09 pm Posts: 2683
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All the re-kilt threads continue to be available for new comments, so no problem bringing them back up, even if the re-kilt is done.
And, you raise a good point that I don't think I ever thought about. My impression is that given that he was going to do this (take her virginity), he wanted to do it in a manner that he considered "right" which meant gently. And, perhaps using the terms of endearment were just his natural reaction to being tender with someone. I think he uses them with children (maybe his nieces and nephews?) and possibly with horses to calm them (did he use them with Claire that first night at Leoch when she thought if she was a horse she'd let him ride her anywhere? which would be another example of using them before Claire was his wife).
I see your point, though, and why it is distasteful to us.
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