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 Post subject: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:42 pm 
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The SPOILER Thread can be found here.



Voyager by Diana Gabaldon

Chapter 11 - Torremolinos Gambit

As usual please discuss all books up to and including Voyager only. For discussions including other books in the series, please post in the Spoiler thread. True?

Summary

Seemingly appeased by Jamie’s explanations on the French gold, John Grey relaxed and they resumed their regular meetings and life at Ardsmuir reverted to the usual: discussing books, playing chess and dining together. Nowhere near the chess player that Jamie was, John however would win the occasional game by sheer wit, employing tried and true plays that had our Jamie stumped at times. The men were comfortable in each other’s company and both of them enjoyed the game.

During one such chess game which John won, Jamie let slip that he was aware of who John Grey was. John was very surprised by this revelation. This led however to Jamie talking about them meeting at Carryarrick when John was a mere sixteen year old boy. Remember that? They also talked about Culloden, John was moved to talk about his lover, Hector who died there. Jamie remembered Lord Melton and Claire. It was a meeting of the minds, joined briefly by shared experiences, each sharing a valuable part of their existence.

Returning to his cell that night, Jamie dreamed of a pregnant Claire … and …er… Lallybroch.

June 18, 1755

As usual John and Jamie were engaged in their regular evening meeting. John, taking special care with his grooming that night, was rather nervous. The chess game was in play. John was wildly imagining his hand in Jamie’s hair! He was unable to concentrate. He touched Jamie’s hand in a plainly suggestive manner! What! Jeesus! He touched Jamie’s hand!!!

“Take your hand off me. Or I will kill you.”


Now, what possessed John to go and do a thing like that?

My heart stopped dead in my chest when I read that. What if?? We all know Jamie's history with BJR at Wentworth. I can only say John has some orbs on him.

What are your thoughts on Jamie's time at Ardsmuir? The group of prisoners he'd come to lead?

I am excited to hear your thoughts on this chapter
. :thanks:

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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:45 am 
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Clan Fraser

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:09 pm
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I did it! I did it! I'm all caught up reading Voyager! :bigsmile:

Well done, Surah. :)

I love the discussion at the beginning of the chapter about the length of Pamela and whether it deserved to be that long. I know it was a scene of the week not too long ago, but I wanted to mention it here. Definitely DG poking fun at herself and her books. :lol:

Some of the conversation about Carryarick makes me a bit more confident about my post in an earlier chapter thread earlier today that Jamie knew very soon after John's arrival who he was (the boy at Carryarick and the younger brother of Lord Melton, whom he met at Culloden).

I had to think a bit about Jamie's comment that Hal was right and looked back a couple of pages. But, once I read back, I realized that his point was that he believed he would grieve Claire (and by extension Brianna) forever because he never saw her dead and therefore couldn't quite accept that she was gone forever.

I also thought the parallel between going home to visit from his cave, and going to Lord John's quarters from the crowded prison cell was interesting.

I've been trying to pay attention to the prisoners that get mentioned some of whom we will meet again later. I think Innes was mentioned for the first time in this chapter (he liked to sleep warm along with Hayes and a couple of others) and he shows up later in this book, for example.

As for why John touched Jamie's hand, there are a couple of things. One, he doesn't know what happened with BJR, so he has no idea how strongly and negatively Jamie is likely to react to such an advance. Two, he is obviously genuinely attracted to Jamie, both as a friend/companion and in a more intimate way. So, from his point of view, a nudge of their relationship in that direction seems fairly reasonable. If it were someone else, or if Jamie did not have such an experience in his past, then the outcome may have just been Jamie saying he wasn't interested in that sort of relationship with John and it might not have been a big deal. It sounds like homosexual activity was not all that unusual in prison (there were no women around after all), so it could potentially have been OK with Jamie, so far as John is aware.

I remember when I first read Voyager thinking about how superficially similar the situations were, but also about the distinct differences between BJR and Lord John. They were both commanding officers in prisons where Jamie was being held and each was a gentleman with a sense of honor (at least in some ways in BJR's case). On the other hand, BJR was called Black Jack and had dark hair and was just nasty, whereas John is fair (light) with blond hair and is a good man and treats Jamie and the other prisoners well (to the extent that he can - he has limited resources to work with at Ardsmuir). I suppose there is also age - BJR must have been older than Jamie and John is younger, but I'm not quite sure how that fits in. But, I thought the dark/evil vs. light/good imagery was interesting given the other parallels.

I've also been wondering if there was something more to the fact that John now has sapphires from both Hector and Jamie and the blue was similar to the color of Jamie's eyes. Not sure I can figure out more than that, though.

I enjoyed the chess stuff too because although I don't play, my husband and son do sometimes and usually my son wins, so he's more like Jamie to hubby's John in terms of winning chess games. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:28 am 
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WOW and WOW! :clap: :clap: Awesome bit of posting work there audiobooklover and congratulations of being caught up! :flower: Now you've made gone to think much deeper on John's reasons and motives regarding Jamie. I actually never gave much thought to his pov i.e the hand touch. But its very interesting. I was just shocked that he would be so bold. Wine and familiarlty perhaps? I too wanted to remember the men of Ardsmuir, for some reason I found I kept rereading whenever there was interaction amongst them. Very interesting parallels you have drawn there too - prison/visits and cave/home.

This is my first rekilt so I am discovering new and wonderful treasures as i go along. First reads are always such a rush job.

I've been so busy working these past months, but you make me totally miss being here. Never realised I craved the in-depth convos that we do here! Much blessings to you and :thanks: on a lot of levels.

I must read this chapter again so I can see it through your eyes!

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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:27 pm 
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Nice, Surah!
I really enjoyed reading the newfound friendship between Jamie and Lord John so much, that I cringed when I got a hint of LJ's intentions and then a big pang of regret for LJ as Jamie withdrew everything.

I am very impressed by your thoughts, ABL.

Re: the question of "what if?" Knowing Jamie's values and his experience at Wentworth, I don't believe that Jamie would ever allow a situation remotely close to that to ever occur to him again. His men in the prison cell respect him and and see him as Laird. They wouldn't seek sexual gratification from Jamie. (I hope I understood your question correctly.)


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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 7:49 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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Surah wrote:
I've been so busy working these past months, but you make me totally miss being here. Never realised I craved the in-depth convos that we do here! Much blessings to you and :thanks: on a lot of levels.

We've missed you, too, Surah! These books have so many levels and each time you read a chapter there is a new appreciation and insight someone can give. :flower:

    'Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind'.
      ~James Russell Lowell


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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:13 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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I think that like the title of the chapter, John took a Gambit on Jamie and hoped that it would work. He is extremely attracted to him as previous men have been and maybe thought it was mutual. Especially after an evening that could have been a nice date by any standards...a nice meal, great conversation, game of chess, cigar and drinks, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Yolie 'what if' meant.... What if Jamie had killed him right there and then??? I could totally see it happening. That is what scared me most I think. Poor John. I do like the guy. Lovesick sod :<3:

Thank you for the warm welcome back! :bow: I will never truly leave.... you all must KNOW that!! :flower:

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 Post subject: Re: VOYAGER: Chapter 11: Torremolinos Gambit
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:17 am 
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Oops! Thank you for the explanation, Surah. Hehehe. Had Jamie killed him, it would have been a terrible ending for both LJ and Jamie. Thank goodness it didn't go that way. Poor John, is right. Heartache is heartache, no matter what. <sigh>


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