It is currently Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:01 pm



Welcome
Welcome to outlanderbookclub

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. In addition, registered members also see less advertisements. Registration is fast, simple, and absolutely free, so please, join our community today!


Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:42 am 
Offline
Clan Fraser

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 1595
Location: Texas
Image

Pawn in Frankincense
by Dorothy Dunnett

© 1966 - © 1994

Chapter 25: Constantinople: The French Embassy

“Lymond had come for her before leaving, his eyes steady, and she had returned his greeting, her face and voice equally peaceful. A well-governed exercise. Except that you could see still, about his eyes and his brow, the marks of the murderous thing which had touched him when Khaireddin had died”(458).

The previous chapter is clearly the nadir of the series. After the horrific events, each person is struggling to deal with what just occurred with the death of the child and GRM which somehow seems anticlimactic considering all the effort Lymond had put forth to end him.

We begin this chapter from Philippa’s perspective while she contemplates all that has happened. After the heinous and appalling events of the previous chapter, Lymond, Philippa, and their group are held in the Seraglio for the night. Lymond has a scant two hours rest before having to face his and their emotional consequences of the chess game. Archie and Jerott realize Lymond cannot be left alone if he is to survive so despite his anger and acid tongue(Protector of the Poor and father of Orphans,…acquire a haram but kindly don’t meddle with me”), they make sure someone is with Lymond at all times.

Philippa is trying to hold it together with the famous British stiff upper lip thinking how differently she viewed funerals at Flaws Valley, but now: “Gabriel is dead; and we are free and alive, except for one small boy, a stranger to whom we were strangers too. And tonight there is hardly one of us who does not wish, in his remorse, that he had died in his place” (450).

Philippa makes a brave effort to show Lymond she is fine despite her trials while Lymond explains to her exactly how her reputation has been ruined to which Philippa’s responds that she is not concerned at all. Lymond clarifies that the only way he can protect her is to give her his name in marriage: “I have very little to offer you…an irresponsible past, and a name which is in some places questionable. But it will shelter you until you can do better” (453).

Philippa angrily refuses and Lymond responds in anger as well “Let me spell it all out for you. I am doing this because I almost certainly have no future” (454). Clearly Lymond does not expect to survive this ordeal and possibly his addiction; Philippa realizes his demise may be at his own hand, so she extracts a promise from Lymond he will not harm himself in exchange for her agreement to marry him.

Jerott and Archie lay into the booze like the Scotsman they are and come back soused. Philippa and Lymond have been forced to share a room which is another reason for their marriage because everyone near and far will know of it. Lymond, talking in his sleep, says some unusual things and speaks of the sister he lost in the explosion back in Scotland. Accidently touching Philippa, Lymond awakes worried that he has harmed her: “What have I done?”(456) Lymond begs Philippa to release him from his promise, but she refuses.

Lymond seems to be somewhat back to his usual saucy self when he wakes Jerott and tells him they have much to discuss. As they leave the Topkapi Serali by boat, Philippa thinks, “Today, perhaps, the Gate of the Dead would perform its office for a small boy whose heritage no one knew; who had lived in squalor and perished in fright. A sacrifice to diminish the soul. A sacrifice to colour all the rest of one’s days” (458). No one who witnessed this tragedy will leave unscathed though to different degrees as perhaps someone like Gaultier only cared for his own life.
OZ finally reappears and sets to preparations for their departure. Lymond and Philippa go through with their marriage for appearances then he and Philippa go for a walk where they discuss Lymond and Jerott’s drinking habits and why he stopped: “One escapes; but one always has to come back. I found too I disliked not being in command of myself” (460).

Lymond sends Philippa to a tekke into the waiting arms of Mikal to presumably to a new plan to escape.

How do you think Lymond is feeling now?

Who do you think he was talking to in his sleep?

What does his attitude towards Kuzum seem to be?

How has Lymond and Phillipa’s relationship changed?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSAY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:57 am 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:20 pm
Posts: 6243
Great summary, LynnL. Thank you.

Lymond weeps! What an astounding event and in the presence of Philippa, this is huge, no matter how he tries to cover it up.

LynnL wrote:
How do you think Lymond is feeling now?
FROZEN. Guilty, overrun with the effects of the opium, and desolate over the heartbreaking choice forced upon him, but thinking somewhat clearly, as he insists in protecting Philippa from the gossip that awaits her in Europe.

Who do you think he was talking to in his sleep?
The nightmares seemed to be centered around Eloise and a second identical child that forced the sacrifice of one.

How has Lymond and Phillipa’s relationship changed?
Philippa has grown a few inches closer to Lymond's height, and I don't mean physically. Especially when she extracts his promise not to hurt himself.

I noticed an interesting parallel between them and a curious flash to TDK. One, the image of a metaphorical forge. The buried anvil in Lymond's heart appears in earlier chapters. And, "The smith in her chest, changing wooden mallet for a small charge of gunpowder, pulverized brain, lungs, and stomach..." (Page 453) Will this play out in following books?

Two, Lymond apologizes, as he did in TDK at the whipping post. "Don't wrest from me my repentance. A whoremonger, a haunter of stews... Kate is going to think I have a great deal to apologize for." (451)


Lymond jumped away from Philippa because he thought he might have touched her inappropriately, not because he thought he'd harmed her.

Another thought to ponder is Lymond's decision not to return to Scotland. Why? Does he fear the DdD's pronouncement, "Your father's two sons will never meet in life again" Or, has Francis already made plans? Now that GRM is dead, perhaps he has agreed to the adventures KK proffered back in Djerba.

We have lost two children. Khaireddin and the child of Flaw Valleys.

_________________
Image
But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSAY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:27 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:06 am
Posts: 4072
Thanks for the summary Lynn, and for the quotes you included. I am not sure if we had already heard mention of the Gate of the Dead, but it is a chilling image.

I was a little confused at the start of the chapter, thinking that Lymond had slept until morning, but then I realised it was only a nap. How insensitive of Gaultier to suggest they play chess, to while the time. I like him less and less each page.

At the end of the last chapter I was a bit unsure about the fuss over Philippa being put in Lymond's room. I had assumed he would pass out from exhaustion (probably on the floor) and that nothing would happen between them, and that would be that. I guess I can't see these things through a sixteenth century lens. At one point, when Lymond is talking to Philippa, he says there is a lot about him that she does not know. I wonder if he will give her a chance to see the other side of him.

When did Lymond get a chance to talk to Mikal and set up a plan? Is he using pigeons also?
Is he worried that Philippa will not be allowed to leave the Embassy? But where is Kuzum? Surely she will not leave him?

And Oz has reappeared - does that mean he is innocent of poisoning Lymond?
If we are still looking for a traitor, then my money is on Gaultier. Nasty, self-centered, petty little man.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSAY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:46 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:20 pm
Posts: 6243
DLT wrote:
At the end of the last chapter I was a bit unsure about the fuss over Philippa being put in Lymond's room. I had assumed he would pass out from exhaustion (probably on the floor) and that nothing would happen between them, and that would be that. I guess I can't see these things through a sixteenth century lens.
Philippa was the offering to the winner, in this case, FC. It's innocuous enough because we know FC won't force carnal relations on Phillippa, plus he's exhausted, emotionally drained, and to an opium addict the activity is almost an impossible feat if you get my meaning. But to the eyes of the sixteenth-century, a maiden spending a full night in a man's bedroom casts a shadow of doubt on her virtue. Four poster bed and all.

_________________
Image
But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:50 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm
Posts: 8543
Thank you Lynn for a fantastic summary. :bow: :bow: I wish I knew how to be more concise.

Duh me! I was wondering what mark had been left on Lymond's eyes and brow! He was weeping. Thank you A-C. I wasn't thinking of tears. I don't believe we have ever seen him cry. Philippa has now witnessed an emotion that no one else has.

Lymond doesn't sleep much, perhaps because he has bad dreams. Nightmares of Eloise, now this too. :cry: :(

It occurred to me that Lymond was escaping into Philippa's presence but he realized what he might have done and retreated. What I'm wondering is who it was that Lymond was referring to when he said he thought she was somebody else. Was he just excusing himself? And not to Philippa but to himself?
[quote="Anam-Charaid"]Philippa has grown a few inches closer to Lymond's height, and I don't mean physically. Especially when she extracts his promise not to hurt himself.
Philippa is becoming Kate.
Quote:
"'You bloody little dictator,' he said. 'You're exactly like Kate.' But he gave his word. ***.

_________________
"'I wish to God,' said Gideon with mild exasperation, 'that you'd talk--just once--in prose like other people.'"
--Game of Kings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:01 pm 
Offline
emerald member

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:50 am
Posts: 139
Location: Mendoza, Mendoza, Argentina
Thank you for the summary LynnL! Still on my phone, so again please excuse me that I don't post properly.
This chapter is kind of a relief from the previous one. I understood slightly different when Philippa talks in her mind to Kate... "dear Kate, how understanding we were about funerals: how we shared in the weeping beforehand and the lightheartedness, the unsuitable laughter which followed..." that's what usually happen... You cry, but you haven't sensed the lost yet so you can still laugh... Unsuitably as she've been laughing, something verging on histerya.
AC, that smith in her chest reference... Is also highlighted in my book! A silly thing that surprised me while re reading... Lymond is more than a head taller than Philippa, I don't know why I have this notion that he's not tall (although I would rather he were), but a head taller than a normal sized woman, is kind of tall, don't you think?
I don't understand very well his nightmares... He mentions Eloise, and that much repeated quote o mill, what hast thou ground... But I don't think I can link the words.
Another thing: did you notice how much Philippa thought that night? About him, about her... Her understanding of human nature is quite beyond her age.
And another one: we're talking about xvi century... No internet no phones no planes. Ottoman empire vs western europe, how can they be so sure that every adventure of Philippa will be known to everybody, specially the night they shared at the Seraglio, under an incredibly delicate and private circumstance?? I find it hard to believe.
Philippa and Lymond relationship? Well.... They're married now, even if it's only on paper it's a bond they will share until and if they get an anullment.
Francis will not go back to Scotland because he's afraid of the prophecy, he'd rather not see his brother again than risking Richard's death.

Enviado desde mi BLU DASH X mediante Tapatalk

_________________
"Think, Yunitsa" he said abruptly (Checkmate)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:28 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:09 pm
Posts: 11206
The site hasn't been working for me much of the day and now I don't have a lot of time, but thanks for the summary and comments all. This chapter was definitely easier going than the previous one, even if the characters are dealing with the aftermath of that. I am relieved to be past the chess game even if all is not exactly happy and safe even now.

I was surprised that Jerrott and Archie took Philippa's jewel (or jade?) and disappeared for a while to drink. I would have expected them to come back sooner out of concern for Lymond and Philippa and maybe to see if Lymond wanted any alcohol after recent events even though he hasn't been drinking for a while.

Philippa is amazingly calm under rather stressful circumstances. And, she's tough when she needs to be, including making Lymond promise and keep his promise in order for her to agree to marry him. And, that - the sudden marriage - was not what I expected (at least the first time I listened to the book). I'm wondering when Lymond and Mikal were able to make a plan. I really hope we can trust Mikal, because I continue to have mixed feelings about him - and he abandoned Philippa once on her travels.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:49 am 
Online
emerald member
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:49 pm
Posts: 180
LynnL…thanks for the lovely clear summary of this chapter. And thanks for all the comments. I too was having trouble with the forum site earlier today.
Darling Dorothy is a past mistress of pace… this chapter gives a bit of breathing room after the last dreadful episode that is the crisis point of PiF….a bit like the place in a terrible fever where there are signs that the disease is passing.
There are still plenty of “steamy emotions” here though. Even the ghastly Gaultier and his comment ‘why not play chess’…surely an over-reaction to his near collapse from fear & cowardice in the selamlik where even Jerrott’s hands were sweaty and Marthe was brought to tears.
Darling Dorothy is also able to break up tension with low comedy and I have to say this chapter contains one of my favourite lines in the whole series:
“ In the end, all the raki that Jerrott and Archie brought back was in Jerrott and Archie. “
More reaction to the past hours with their release physical and emotional.
How do you think Lymond is feeling now?
I like A-C’s term FROZEN and I would say numb but still able to plan and think of what has to be done next in spite of physical & emotional exhaustion. I think he must have made plans for a possible escape even before the second trial ( Roxelana’s) on the off chance that any of them would be released.
Mikal is certainly present for that, although I don’t believe there is a mention of KK. Correct me if I am wrong.

Who do you think he was talking to in his sleep? Eloise I think or one of the others he sees as his sacrifices!
What does his attitude towards Kuzum seem to be?
FC is in such a vacuum of feeling & reaction that he is only capable of going through the motions and thus ignores him or leaves him to Phillippa & Marthe... How could he possibly do otherwise? But he still makes plans for everybody for the situation and for the future.

How has Lymond and Phillipa’s relationship changed?
Philippa’s voice notices the physical changes between herself & FC…almost all of the others have seen the results of her ‘gilding’.
Her ‘giddiness’ at the end of the last chapter was also reaction as well as the camouflage of clowning that has served her well during her stay in the seraglio. Now she rises to the occasion in a much more serious way and FC seems to take her seriously too, in spite of her comedic comments and he sees her likeness to Kate for possibly the first time. She is certainly acting in a wonderfully mature way… maybe because of Marthe’s advice or just by using her own good sense.
I know that it seems incredible that anyone in Europe would know or care about what happened that night in Topkapi. It’s hard to imagine how close the world was in that time and place, anyone who was anybody knew everybody else and the amount of letters and messages and the quantity of gossip was astounding.
I agree with AC that FC jumped away from Philippa because he thought he might have touched her inappropriately, not because he thought he'd harmed her.
Heather

Mod edit.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:44 am 
Offline
Clan Fraser

Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 1595
Location: Texas
Hmmm, I am wondering if Lymond thought Philippa was Oonagh in his dream state("I thought it was somebody else..."456) as he must of had Khareddin on his mind?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:01 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:20 pm
Posts: 6243
LynnL wrote:
Hmmm, I am wondering if Lymond thought Philippa was Oonagh in his dream state("I thought it was somebody else..."456) as he must of had Khareddin on his mind?
Or Christian Stewart, someone he believes died because of him. On this night of guilt, FC is reliving all his torturing memories.

lormza wrote:
I don't understand very well his nightmares... He mentions Eloise, and that much repeated quote o mill, what hast thou ground... But I don't think I can link the words.
I suspect he sees a hellish collage of moments and recollections. The first time FC recites, "O mill, what hast thou ground..." is after he learns GRM has a son. This unforeseen child, who looks so like his own, is an added complication to an already painful, convoluted, and dangerous quest.

The verse quoted in the guide highlights FC's lament, the impending doom is painfully poignant:

      O mill, what hast thou ground? Precious thy wheat!
      It is not oats thou hast ground, but the offspring of Kervall
      The grain which the mill has ground
      Is not oats but blood-red wheat
      With the scions of the great tree Mailonran's mill was fed.

FC, a powerless human, who understands the might of universal forces he can't control, protests to the Fates and Destiny: "What have you done? What new disaster, what tragedy, have you concocted this time?"

This is worth reading, as it explains the origin of the poem: Google books - A Smaller Social History of Ancient Ireland

_________________
Image
But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:57 pm 
Offline
sapphire member

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:47 am
Posts: 940
Location: North America
Thank you, Lynn, for an excellent introduction. I, too, bow to your superb concision and wish I had that gift! :bow: :bow: :bow:

I keep flashing back to GoK. When Christian steps in to rescue Lymond from the Peine Forte et Dure at Threave, he tries to stop her with crude and cruel insults because he believes he is unworthy and doesn't want her tainted by association with her. This is very similar to his desire to protect Philippa. He wants no more deaths or ruined lives because of him.

And we witness Lymond's first tearful breakdown after Hexham when he begs Richard to kill him (in Knight Adversary):
Quote:
Lymond screamed once with agony, and then screamed and screamed again. Within a dumb and breathless nature the sound exploded... Lymond had stopped the noise with his hands. The long, cramped fingers hid his face as he crouched, the breath sobbing in his lungs and the blood flamboyant through the crushed bandages, ... “Francis!” Excoriated by the shuddering, raucous sound, Richard spoke harshly. “I can’t let you take your own life.” Lymond took his hands from his face. The blood was everywhere now; his torment of grief public, uncaring. “Must I plead?” He stopped in extremity, beaten, shaken by pulses, and then struggled on. “You claim your right of execution.… May I not exercise mine? Could all the chains of Threave outweigh what I already bear, do you think? … You can’t relieve me of your weight, or help me, or free me … except in one way.” Richard, his memory taken by the throat, was mute. With a bitter courage, Lymond raised his head. “I beg you.” I will bring him to you on his knees, and weeping, and begging aloud to be killed.

Richard had Francis where he wanted him: weeping and begging to be killed.

Lymond is more self-possessed now (certainly while he is awake), but his death wish is reasserting itself, which explains the promise Philippa exacts.

This is at least the second time we have seen FC suicidal or close to it. Very disturbing to me that he would believe self-slaughter to be an acceptable choice. :cry:

The current issue of The Whispering Gallery includes a question about who it is that Lymond thought he touched during that night in the ornate bed with Philippa:
Quote:
Philippa said fiercely, ‘Look: nothing happened. You only thought it did. You moved in your sleep, that was all.’ He didn’t lift his head, and his voice, muffled by his hands, was not familiar at all. ‘I know. I thought it was somebody else.…

I do not believe there is one right answer. I would be very interested in your opinions and why you think Lymond thought it was that person. LynnL mentioned Oonagh and A-C Christian. Any other candidates?

_________________
"Look up," said the Master, "and see them. The teaching stars, beyond worship and commonplace tongues. The infinite eyes of innocence." Dorothy Dunnett, Game of Kings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:35 pm 
Offline
emerald member

Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:50 am
Posts: 139
Location: Mendoza, Mendoza, Argentina
Ohh Clewless and you're not going to tell us what the article says! You really like to make us think further!
I have an odd notion that I thought it was the Agha Morat, just because of the revulsion. But if it was Oonagh why the scare? Is it too foolish my question? Oonagh in his bed, oonagh dead and full of straw. Well, I don't think he was afraid he touched her unapropiet (finish the word for me please), but that he was scared in his sleep. Poor Eloise, the mill (thanks A-C I was just going to ask for assurance that I translated well the sentence... What have you done??), why did you do it, and then the scare... Gosh... No, can't link them...

Enviado desde mi BLU DASH X mediante Tapatalk

_________________
"Think, Yunitsa" he said abruptly (Checkmate)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:04 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:16 pm
Posts: 8543
Anam-Charaid wrote:
Quote:
LynnL wrote:
Hmmm, I am wondering if Lymond thought Philippa was Oonagh in his dream state("I thought it was somebody else..."456) as he must of had Khareddin on his mind?

Or Christian Stewart, someone he believes died because of him. On this night of guilt, FC is reliving all his torturing memories.
I would agree with that interpretation. Lymond heard the same words or the same idea from Christian that he heard from Philippa and Marthe. They are telling him that he must preserve his life. The other possibility is that Lymond is saying that he thought it was someone else to distance himself.

I think that he even though he may have been incapable of any inappropriate behavior (...you knoooow....) doesn't mean that Lymond was taken aback at a possible arousal. He is embarrassed that Philippa may have noticed or that he might have acted upon it. It must have been some dreamscape.
Quote:
...it was he himself who, flinging over in some great gesture of escape and despair, touched her body. p. 456 (Vintage)
The other question is whose voice is it? The author's or Lymond's? Certainly not Philippa's!

LynnL wrote:
Lymond seems to be somewhat back to his usual saucy self when he wakes Jerott and tells him they have much to discuss.
I was happy to have Lymond somewhat back to himself.
Anam-Charaid wrote:
The verse quoted in the guide highlights FC's lament, the impending doom is painfully poignant:

O mill, what hast thou ground? Precious thy wheat!
It is not oats thou hast ground, but the offspring of Kervall
The grain which the mill has ground
Is not oats but blood-red wheat
With the scions of the great tree Mailonran's mill was fed.

FC, a powerless human, who understands the might of universal forces he can't control, protests to the Fates and Destiny: "What have you done? What new disaster, what tragedy, have you concocted this time?"

This is worth reading, as it explains the origin of the poem: Google books - A Smaller Social History of Ancient Ireland
Thank you for posting the poem and the link.

Clewless wrote:
I keep flashing back to GoK. When Christian steps in to rescue Lymond from the Peine Forte et Dure at Threave, he tries to stop her with crude and cruel insults because he believes he is unworthy and doesn't want her tainted by association with her. This is very similar to his desire to protect Philippa. He wants no more deaths or ruined lives because of him.
He couldn't protect Christian or Oonagh, but he has an opportunity to do so with Philippa. His approach is much kinder this time even if he loses his temper and must explain the marriage to Philippa. Lymond has grown since then, or as you put it so fittingly, "self-possessed."
lormza wrote:
I have an odd notion that I thought it was the Agha Morat,
Well, that's a possibility, but I should think Lymond would try to escape from that one, not seek escape with him. It could have been anybody or just Lymond explaining--a denial to himself, as it could have been Philippa-- to protect the girl from thinking the marriage is other than a paper one. He seems rather afraid to be near her.

_________________
"'I wish to God,' said Gideon with mild exasperation, 'that you'd talk--just once--in prose like other people.'"
--Game of Kings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:10 pm 
Offline
sapphire member

Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2014 4:47 am
Posts: 940
Location: North America
lormza, the question is posed for the next Whispering Gallery. No responses yet. I can think of many possibilities, but I wish once again I had access to Darling Dorothy's mind, although that must have been quite a place...

Possibilities (already mentioned): Oonagh, Christian, Aga Morat
Others: Eloise, Khaireddin, Kate, Joleta, Guzel, Mikal, Marthe
More??

I agree with ND that Lymond seems very afraid to be near Philippa. The question is why? I don't think it's because he doesn't trust himself to control his carnal urges (hardly--as A-C pointed out he's in no fit state to act on them if he had any, and I am convinced that is the farthest thing from his mind on this terrible, terrible night).

So why is he afraid? I think the past is coming back all too starkly--so many ghosts hovering over that bed: Eloise, Christian, Robin, Joleta, Wat and Will Scott, Oonagh, Khaireddin, even the Evil One. Francis does not want to add yet another. He must protect Philippa and Kuzum, even if he believes Kuzum is GRM's son.

_________________
"Look up," said the Master, "and see them. The teaching stars, beyond worship and commonplace tongues. The infinite eyes of innocence." Dorothy Dunnett, Game of Kings


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DUNNETT:PIF:CH 27:CONSTANTINOPLE:THE FRENCH EMBASSY
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:03 pm 
Offline
Clan Fraser
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 3:06 am
Posts: 4072
Clewless wrote:
He must protect Philippa and Kuzum, even if he believes Kuzum is GRM's son.

We've all had many years to think through the time frame of this story, and (I think) we decided that Khaireddin was the older boy and therefore must have been Gabriel's son, who was born nearly a year before Lymond's son, who must therefore be Kuzum. Has nobody in the Lymond party paused to think this through and wonder at the ages of the boys, and speculate over which is which?
Or maybe nobody saw the two boys at the same time until the chess game?


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 51 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
suspicion-preferred