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 Post subject: OUTLANDER: The Strapping
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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We were discussing this in another forum and I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion about it.

Why did Jamie spank Claire? What was the reason and was it necessary?

It did bother me as a modern woman but actually not as much as it should have. I immediately thought that this was a different time, Jamie was from a very different existence. He really needed to show not just to Claire but to his clan that he had control. Claire endangered them all and there were consequences. I also thought that if she could forgive him, who am I to hold a grudge.

What are your thoughts and opinions. I look forward to reading about it.



MOD NOTE: The scene is in Chapter 22 ~ Reckonings

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Fri Sep 18, 2009 11:23 pm 
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I agree Tink. I was angered by it initially, because I could feel Claire's humiliation. However, Jamie did not punish Claire to be malicious or cruel. He felt it was appropriate and expected from his clan. It would have been politically incorrect if he had hesitated or not meted out the punishment as his men expected. Furthermore, Jamie did not understand Claire's behavior for what it was. Once he did he regretted it.

I will post what I wrote before in the other forum:
Quote:
I can forgive Jamie's behavior because of who and when he is; that's why I came to understand the beating and such. (I dinna like it though.) His view of women are more progressive than some of his time and less than others'. Even though Jamie behaves like a man is expected to behave, he gives Claire equal opportunities. There are frequent examples of those. He respects her choices, once he understands why she does what she does, and loves her so much that he is willing to let her go no matter how much it hurts.

If Jamie thinks something needs correcting, however, he acts upon it. He behaves according to the codes of a Scottish highlander. He is a man of his word and does not shrink away from doing the right thing. There are no double standards with Jamie. He willingly accepts any punishment that he feels that he deserves--and would insist upon it.

In OL, Claire unwittingly and innocently, does cause harm. Like Jamie, her intentions are good. Socially, Jamie and Claire would have been ostracized from the clan's society had James not "corrected" the harm that Claire caused. Claire understands this quite well, albeit infuriated by the means. How could she easily accept it? She is a woman closer to our times. But Jamie never begrudges Claire her due and deserved admiration. He extols her for her intelligence, her astuteness, her brave ways and never stops her from being who she needs to be. He understands, as we do, what a remarkable individual she is.

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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I copied this from what I posted on the JW thread in TM. I did so because to me these were the most valid reasons why Jamie "spanked" or I should say punished Claire.

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"As women of the 21st century the idea of a physical spanking goes against everything that we are and feel. Some have commented on this and I agree that it was the "times" more than anything that forced him to do it. If we look back, not too long ago it was considered okay to beat a child in punishment, in fact for me, the "belt" was not a foreign concept growing up. I hated it, and when I reached my teens I said enough!!! The beatings stopped!

But going back to Jamie, considering what was going on he really had no choice in the matter. They were almost in times of war and what they did to rescue her put them all in danger, not just Jamie. I think that if it had been Jamie alone, he might not have done it. But the men were p---ed off, big time. Obedience was customary and he would have lost the respect of his team if he had not done it. Also Jamie really did not know Claire's reasons for disobeying. Remember that as far as he understood it Claire was a woman of the 18th century, once the truth was revealed, he felt absolutely terrible. In fact Jamie went much further than Frank when it came to "believing" Claire, difficult and unbelievable as it might have been."


Claire's disobedience at first glance --and under the circumstances of the times -- appeared as willful and irresponsible. Not only to Jamie but to his comrades. They went the extra mile to rescue her, but he had no other alternative than to produce an "outward" sign of the punishment traditional with their times. Hey had it been a man who had done the same thing, 20 lashes would not have been that unrealistic. Look at what Randall did to her. First he punched in the stomach and just before the rescue he was getting ready to rape her.

On the other hand I believe that Jamie behaved admirably once he knew Claire's reasons. The fact that he believed her implicitly and returned her to the stones, more than redeemed him in my eyes. Also what is significant here is that Claire herself, even with the beating, decided to stay with Jamie, "hot baths" notwithstanding. That says it all.

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But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate


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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2009 11:57 am 
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Clan Fraser
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TwilightTINK wrote:
Why did Jamie spank Claire? What was the reason and was it necessary?

It did bother me as a modern woman but actually not as much as it should have. I immediately thought that this was a different time, Jamie was from a very different existence. He really needed to show not just to Claire but to his clan that he had control. Claire endangered them all and there were consequences. I also thought that if she could forgive him, who am I to hold a grudge.


The Spanking didn't really bother me, either. I accepted it in the terms of the time... and from the perspective of the time and how men regarded their women, Jamie truly showed great restraint and deference toward Claire. At the time of The Spanking, he did not know of her true identity, thus not understanding she didn't understand the consequences of her actions. It wasn't until later... when he knew why she scurried off and that she didn't understand the clan dynamics at work, that he felt remorse. I don't think, though, he felt remorse for The Spanking, but did feel compassion for her plight. I've got to go re-kilt that section of the book.

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 9:19 pm 
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Clan Fraser Veteran
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I agree that Jamie let Claire off easy with the spanking. According to the rules of the time and the fact that what she did endangered others and was not just a simple matter of disobedience, she should have been flogged.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:41 am 
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Agree with all above, with one addition: Jamie also points out to Claire that it isn't enough for her to agree not to disobey him again, she must instinctively understand it. Consider watching a toddler reach for an open flame: Would you react sharply and quickly to show the toddler that reaching for fire is strongly discouraged, or would you you calmly say, "Now little Johnny, I see you reaching for that flame and I would like to strongly discourage you from doing that. There will be unhealthy consequences." The strength of the caution certainly goes a long way to ingraining the importance of the lesson.

Yes, I'm no advocate for beating (though I have to admit, I chuckled through that entire section), but I understand the reason behind his actions given the times and circumstances they lived in. I also liked that Claire appreciated them, too, though her fear and stubborness ultimate led her to fight him-hard. I also appreciated Jamie's oath not to do it again, and his genuine regret later when he learned her real motives for disobeying him. I also think, that in a way, he was really doing it somewhat for her, to allow her to recover her good favor with Dougal and the rest of the men.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:21 am 
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It has been so long since I have read this section... I do remember that I was mildly outraged when I first read it. By the time it happened I was in love with Jamie so that's why it was mild. I understand the implications of both their actions but I kept thinking that he took a beating to protect Laoghaire from public humiliation and although Claire is not standing in front of all the men, they all know and hear (partly her fault) and it is public humiliation.

During my re-read I smiled more and now I want to read it again....


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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 3:52 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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I had forgotten about that incident with Laoghaire... not the first of many beatings he received so he does understand what it all means. Still it surprised me but didn't offend me.

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 6:44 pm 
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At first you would think he should have offered to take the beating in the same way he offered to take Laoghaire's. I don't think that would have had the same result with the men. Claire was his wife and she should have been better under his control whereas Laoghaire was of no real relation. To have taken Claire's beating for her would have looked like preferential treatment.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:02 pm 
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Quote:
Claire was his wife and she should have been better under his control whereas Laoghaire was of no real relation. To have taken Claire's beating for her would have looked like preferential treatment.


I agree, Thistle.

What Claire did was different, though. She unintentionally brought the clansmen to harm, whereas Loaghaire had harmed no one with her meanderings.

Claire was a woman, who, in Jamie's mind, should have known her place, as his wife.* Loaghaire was being punished for something that Jamie understood quite well. He knew what it was like to burn. He saw no sin in Loaghaire's behavior and so he stepped forward to take her punishment. To step forward for Claire would have undermined his position of respect. As we've pretty much stated, it would have hurt Claire socially.

* When Jamie did discover Claire's motives, he understood that she did know her place, as another man's wife.

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:50 am 
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TwilightTINK wrote:
I had forgotten about that incident with Laoghaire... not the first of many beatings he received so he does understand what it all means. Still it surprised me but didn't offend me.



Sorry I didn't mean for Jamie to take the beating for Claire just have more sympathy for her and the humiliation it would cause. I think the men would have had to perceive him as punishing her but if they had used their creative juices I'm sure they could have come up with something different.

Loaghaire's meanderings would have brought bad implications for her and her family (but Jamie took the beating because the public whipping would have brought more harm to her and he explains this). If she was with whatever man her father accused her of being with and she became pregnant, what would have happened in the 18th century? She was unintentionally bringing harm to herself and her family. And Jamie would have understood that better than the burning because he at 23 (older than L'ra) had just as many burning loins and was still a virgin.

Again, I understood Jamies reasons and accepted them without it damaging my opinion of his character but I had to get to that point. On the first read I was more than irritated by the idea.

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 11:58 am 
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I really liked that he did not want to do it. Just as a parent spanks a child but does not want to. I think Claire understood it and accepted it, too. There are many times after, at least through Voyager, where he comments about taking her over his knee but so far, no more spankings, except for the naughty variety (as often as he comments on the shape of her backside, I can't imagine he hasn't spanked it a time or two).

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:57 pm 
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This part bothered me at first. It was like he thought it was okay to hit her because she deserved it. It was kind of abusive! But then I have to remind myself of the time period and that this something that would be perfectly acceptable. If was from today, I am not sure he would have done it.


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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 7:16 pm 
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sheacox wrote:
This part bothered me at first. It was like he thought it was okay to hit her because she deserved it. It was kind of abusive! But then I have to remind myself of the time period and that this something that would be perfectly acceptable. If was from today, I am not sure he would have done it.


The spanking was shocking to me too. :o I did not actually think Jaime would go through with it and that he had only proposed to punish her to quell the others. But, considering how he was raised and punished by his own father for disobedience, Jaime saw nothing wrong with his actions. Once he realized why Claire had disobeyed him (to get back to the stones and her first husband), he expressed remorse for his actions and promised to never spank/hit her again. Claire in turn, told him she would kill him if he tried. So while the spanking restored Jaime's reputation and standing with his men, it did alter his relationship with Claire. He could not understand the ways of the 20th century woman, but he could respect Claire as his equal, rather than as his possession, which was the norm in the 18th century.

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 Post subject: Re: The Spanking
PostPosted: Thu Oct 15, 2009 9:31 pm 
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Jamie had to spank Clare because of the other men they were traveling with. She directly or indirectly put them all in danger and as Jamie explained if a man had done that he would have been seriously injured or possibly killed by the other men of the party. He didn't want to go to that an extreme to punish a woman (any woman but especially his wife) but he had to make it clear she had been punished for her misdeeds. He choose a method that all the men would find a satisfactory punishment.


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