***SPOILER ALERT***
All The Bronze Horseman Trilogy Books Open For Discussion


At Leningrad, at the beginning of it all, Alexander was mad at Tatiana for not fighting for him. We later learn that he didn't expect to live past the war; "the cycle of a moon." Obviously he was living the life of a soldier. No regrets because you might not be here tomorrow. Can we say that Alexander was being selfish in asking Tania to hurt her family and thrust her into a very awkward situation (no matter if Alexander lived or not) thinking he wasn't going to be around for it? Or is he justified? Can we justify him? Just a topic for discussion.

Great topic, Yolie. Tatiana always put the happiness of others above her own, which caused her to deprive herself of what she wanted. In this case, it was Alexander. There was no guarantee any of them would survive. Tatiana could be easily killed by a bomb on her rooftop or collapse from hunger. I think Alexander was thinking in the moment and wanted Tatian to finally put herself first, which meant she would give priority to their relationship. One way or another, he would make certain she was safe.

When Alexander first met Tatiana, she was pretty naive and submissive to her family. Her family had done a number on her and I don't think that emotionally she was up to the confrontation. Here's her sister going on about this great guy that she met who may be the "one" and it turns out to be a boy she just met once but was smitten with. Her sister made it sound like they had this serious, ongoing relationship, and even if she wasn't her sister, but maybe a good friend, it's believable that she would step back and not get involved any further.

Yolie, interesting question. On the one hand, you feel it's justified that people in a situation like this want to seize the moment no matter the consequences, after all who knows what tomorrow may bring, so you feel Alexander is right in wanting Tatiana to fight for their love and you can even think that he was right in wanting Tatiana to put herself first and not be so submissive.

When I was reading TBH I had a really different picture of Alexander than I have after reading TSG. So when I read TBH for the first time I felt Alexander was really looking out for Tatiana and that was his only motive. So after TSG, although I still LOVE Alexander and I know he passionately loves and adores Tatiana, I also understand he is very selfish and self-centered, maybe I'm being harsh but he really bugs me the way he treats her sometimes, so maybe his motives in TBH were a bit selfish.

That said, as I've already written in discussions before, I'd really rather stay in the illusion that he's changed because of what he went through.

Is my post as mixed up as it seems to me? I really can't make up my mind on the subject

Not at all, Riki. I totally understand and agree with you. In fact, I think that's why I brought the question up because I wanted to see how other's felt about it, knowing what happened to Tania and Alexander afterwards.

Too me, there are two Alexanders. TBH Alexander and TSG Alexander. Everyone changes, and of course, how can you not change after what he went through. And even in TSG, Alexander changed some more as he battled and won his demons. I still continue to mull my own question over and over again.

(still mulling it over, geez.)
Riki, I agree with you on how you see Alexander. He just conflicts me. I want to agree with you that he is, maybe, selfish, but at the same time, I can't fully commit to that statement because of everything he did for Tania in Leningrad. He seems to be selfish to have pushed himself onto her (this is still debatable, right? hehehe), but then he manned up and gave so much.

Yolie, I agree with you. Alexander did man up. He could have bailed and left with Dimitri, leaving Tatiana behind. After all, his main goal had been to return to the states. He was used to being completely on his own from a young age and didn't really have fond memories of his family to help him through difficult situations. But alas, he is a survivor and to be one means being selfish at times. He needed a great love to rescue him and he found it in Tatiana. Unfortunately, they lost sight of that love and commitment when life got in the way, yet no one can deny that Alexander loves Tatiana more than he ever has loved anyone, or ever will.

It was also difficult for Alexander to return to a family that was unfamiliar to him, His son was a stranger who competed for Tatian's love and attention. I don't think Alexander was ready to be a father in T&A. I wonder if he would have mellowed out sooner had he and Tatiana had a second child sooner. The trying and waiting to conceive also placed a strain on their marriage.

It is true that Alexander gave up a lot for Tatiana, especially staying behind alone in the USSR in order to save Tatiana and Anthony and that points to the fact that he is not all selfish.

I am still not sure what to think about his behaviour in TSG as compared to TBH as in TSG he sometimes behaved in a very coarse and crude manner. As I mentioned before even the way he spoke to Carmen (not that I like her) when she came looking for him in the building site, shocked me. We had a debate on it in TSG thread where I think Pauline said that Alexander was actually coarse and crude from the beginning with his brawling and womanizing because of his history, being alone and having to look over his shoulder all the time. But I still have a hard time accepting his behaviour in the TSG and I like to think he has changed because of his experiences, I loved him so much in TBH

But maybe his behaviour in TSG is his true self because we see that also in a day to day living he is selfish and wrapped up in himself wanting to be served hand and foot that's not because of what he went through it's just plain selfish, it made me so mad sometimes when I was reading the book, at Tatiana too. But still in TBH he was so sweet to Tatiana, helped her even in the little things and was angry when everybody took advantage of her.

So this post seems very muddled even to me, that's because I'm confused myself and can't seem to decide

You're not muddled, Riki. Alexander did change and how could he not? Look at his life up to meeting Tatiana in TBH. His parents betrayed him and abandoned him in a foreign country. He had to go underground to survive including joining military service. He spends his days and nights plotting and scheming for a way to get out of this iron curtain while playing a role that can get him seriously harmed. Look at those flashbacks of him in the bars, taking girls (including Dasha) out in the alley or having semi-orgies in the barracks. How crude and low can you get hanging out with Dimitri every day.

In the middle of all of this, he spots Tatiana, almost childlike and innocent eating her ice cream cone while the city is on the brink of a total collapse. While it opened something in him that he didn't expect and I think that his mind warred between his old self plotting and scheming, and his new self enjoying this wonderful creature. If he had met her maybe 10 years prior, he would have been a different Alexander, but his course was set.

As for his later in TSG having Tatiana wait on him hand and foot, that was probably a generational thing. My mother was like that with my father and that was up to the 70's and 80's. It used to aggravate me to no end but that was what that generation was like and all they knew. Now I realize that it wasn't necessarily wrong, but just their way of expressing love or receiving love.

Yes, at first. I was obvious he had a hard time at the beginning. We only get a glimpse of his homecoming in New York, but there were some signs of his struggle via Tatiana's eyes. Like her throwing away her shoe and fancy clothes, his thing with her hair, etc. But, in regards to Anthony, I believe Alexander shaped up quickly. He would take Anthony with him on the boats, played with him, taught him to read and fish, and so many other things. He didn't deny his time with Anthony and he was happy with Anthony. I think Anthony knew Alexander loved him.

I also agree that their trying to conceive placed additional strain to the marriage. And what about his going to school? Even in today's society, immense strain is placed on the family dynamics when both parents work, one parent goes to school, extracurricular activities, etc. They really over filled their plates. Most particularly because they had issues to deal with.


I agree with so much of what you said, Pauline.
The fact that they remained together after everything is testament to their endurance and love. And I also believe that it was nearly impossible for Alexander to not change and Tania, as well. So many of their "crazy" behavior could be understood if we remember the strenuous circumstances they lived and had to overcome. But despite all that, the one thing that I still have difficulty accepting is the infidelity. Can I excuse that behavior as a result of some awful life experience? Is this were the selfishness comes into place?

And in regards to Carmen, I agree that Alexander's behavior with her at his work was rude and what no, but I think Alexander intentionally meant it to be rude. He realized that he made an awful mistake and in the worst way and had to nip it in the bud, ASAP. He didn't want Carmen to question his motives or to consider the idea that maybe Alexander's mind could be swayed. No. He was done and wanted her to know it. He treated Carmen with as much indignity he could muster in a public place so that he could be rid of her. IMHO.

And on a further though regarding Tatiana serving Alexander. Not only do I agree it's generational, but I also think it's one of the general themes in the book. Tania said to love was to feed the other person and know when he was hungry. And this theme goes back and forth between them. Not just Tatiana to Alexander but also Alexander to Tania. Even during their hard times and awful fights, Tania never stopped feeding him or making bread. Except when that awful thing happened. Ugh! I still get a heavy, awful feeling in my heart.

I know it's a generational thing like Pauline said although my personal experience with my parents, also of the same generation, is very different. But I know that this was the case in many families then.

But the thing is, although it seems like a way of giving and receiving love, look what happens when Alexander doesn't get his own way. I know that Tatiana working in the hospital was a big issue with him but I still don't think it justifies the way he stops appreciating everything she does, after all she doesn't neglect her "duties" around the house, and Tatiana herself says he doesn't lift a finger, very different from the way he acted in Leningrad and Lazarevo. I still think he was being quite selfish. (I still love him though ).

And of course, nothing justifies infidelity. I was quite crushed after all they went through to be together, I just couldn't bear to think he would want be with another woman. Frankly, I don't know how Tatiana could. It's quite amazing to think how faithful he was when he was in the USSR and thought he would never see Tatiana again.

I agree Yolie and Riki. Some actions are hard to forgive. Although Tatiana did not have physical relationship with Bradley, she was definitely attracted to him. She tells him not to say the words he would regret when they are at lunch because then they could no longer be friends. Was she spending so much time at the hospital be@ause she lov ed her job or to be closer to Bradley? One could say she was having an emotional affair with him. I also can't help wonder if she wanted to give Alexander a taste of what betrayal felt like by going out to dinner with Bradley the night of the BIG fight.

I thought she definitely meant to give Alexander a taste of betrayal there. And, probably also wanted to feel wanted by someone since she felt so betrayed herself.

I didn't consider her behavior with Bradley nearly as bad as what Alexander did (not quite up to "emotional affair"), but given the problems at home and Alexander not listening to her concerns about his co-workers and all, I'm not surprised that she enjoyed and appreciated her time with Bradley (as well as working at the hospital).

No one may agree, but I think that they were both being unfaithful to one another, and would further argue that Tania's was the worse of the two. Tania was building a relationship with Bradley and for all intents and purposes, the two of them were dating within the confines of the hospital. They had dinner together every day, at parties they were the couple socializing with other couples, and if Alexander divorced her at that moment in time, she would probably be married to Bradley within 6 months. She and Bradley knew what was happening between them but were fooling themselves that as long as they didn't get physical, it wasn't an affair. Alexander saw them together as did everyone else and understood what was happening with them. Sometimes people within a relationship don't see it as fully as those that are trying to fool themselves.

Does that excuse Alexander's physical relationship with Carmen? Absolutely not. But she was no different than a man visiting a hooker to relieve a physical need. And, more than that, it seemed like he was doing it hoping that it would spark some reaction from Tatiana who had gone into this "I couldn't care less about you anymore" mode.

I'm not saying that I side with Alexander more than Tatiana, but she was building a relationship, Alexander was only scratching an itch. Her relationship was the most dangerous of the two.

Ok, now you can hate me

Pauline, I don't hate you, I agree with you.

You hit the nail on the head with your observations about what was going on between Alexander and Tatiana. They were growing apart and reaching out to other people for comfort. You are right, Tatiana's relationship was worse than Alexander's because she was emotionally attached to Bradley and was confiding in him when she should have been talking to her husband. Alexander was looking for a good time because he did not feel wanted at home. Aside from preparing meals, Tatiana made very little time for her family.

We get only a glimpse of Tatiana and Bradley's relationship at the holiday party and at lunchtime, but we read a play by play of Alexander's tryst with Carmen, which is why I think we are so angry with Alexander. In the end, the behaviour of both parties was wrong.

Go ahead, you can hate me, too.