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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Anam-Charaid wrote:
Janet23 wrote:
Can you explain what you mean?


Happy to... :flower: :flower:

"Gambit" Chapter 40 (I have the kindle location #7669) The scene is entirely different than Voyager's.


Can you tell me where the scene is in Voyager?


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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Mary_Mac wrote:
Can you tell me where the scene is in Voyager?


PM'd you the scene in Voyager.

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But the wine had been too strong for her, as it had for the others; and like the others she had stepped from the safe shores of friendship. She stood now in another country, whose sun burned and whose air was too rare for her breathing. Checkmate


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Thanks!

I've only read voyager once so I probably wouldn't have noticed the change in the opening of the chess moves between this book and SP, but now having looked them over I can see why it's troublesome to some readers that Jamie is no longer taking the initiative to begin the conversation. I think I could probably write it off to each character having a different memory of the event though I'm extremely surprised that DG wouldn't revisit Voyager to confirm that she had the details correct. That seems very sloppy. :(


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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Wow Mary_Mac. I posted at the thread about the revisionist issues very similar thoughts, both about Jamie and John having different memories of the events and about being surprised that DG or (more importantly if DG didn't want to go back to Voyager too much) her editor didn't catch the inconsistency in the chess conversation.


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:14 pm 
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audiobooklover wrote:
Wow Mary_Mac. I posted at the thread about the revisionist issues very similar thoughts, both about Jamie and John having different memories of the events and about being surprised that DG or (more importantly if DG didn't want to go back to Voyager too much) her editor didn't catch the inconsistency in the chess conversation.


Great minds! ;)
I almost wonder if DG did it for a reason. After all, she seems very deliberate in her writing and her inclusion of symbolism and little details that are interesting and relevant to the time period. On the other hand, I guess she's allowed to make mistakes. You make a good point about the editor though. That would be something an editor should catch. Maybe she/he is not as obsessed with OL as we are. :bigsmile:


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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Mary_Mac wrote:
That would be something an editor should catch. Maybe she/he is not as obsessed with OL as we are. :bigsmile:

Then maybe she should make us the editors. :bigsmile:


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:57 pm 
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audiobooklover wrote:
Mary_Mac wrote:
That would be something an editor should catch. Maybe she/he is not as obsessed with OL as we are. :bigsmile:

Then maybe she should make us the editors. :bigsmile:

Sign me up! :rotfl:


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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:03 am 
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Clan Fraser
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I am not sure whether to post this here, or under “is SP revisionist” as it pertains to both topics.

I have read all the threads of discussion about the reversal of the chess scene between Voyager and SP but I think that the real revision came with BoftB.

In Voyager, it is after Geneva’s funeral that Lady Dunsany tells Jamie that she can probably arrange for Jamie to go home because Lord John’s family has some influence. This sets Jamie thinking that LJ used his influence not to keep Jamie imprisoned, as he has thought up until now, but to offer him as much freedom as he can. This is what causes Jamie to make the first move of reconciliation, by offering an opening chess move. Voyager goes on to say that after that occasion the two men had many amiable conversations on John’s subsequent quarterly visits.

In BotB LJ visits Helwater in January 1758 for Geneva’s funeral, after which he speaks to Jamie about his own father. In his next visit to Helwater, in March, he asks Jamie to correspond with the Jacobites to find out about his father’s murderer, and LJ’s third visit to Helwater, in September or October, is when the dramatic scene in the stables takes place.

So, clearly, Jamie has not had an opportunity to suggest a verbal chess game during either of the first two visits, and certainly does not at the third visit.

In SP, we learn that John has not been back to Helwater since that conversation. Hence, the chess scene in Voyager cannot have taken place. This is sad, because it is important for us, as readers, to learn that somewhere along the line, Jamie recognized that John was treating him honourably, and I, for one, really liked the way that Jamie made peace with John.

I don’t have a problem with the chess scene in SP from LJ’s point of view, because it works in the context of how the relationship between them has evolved. It serves to show us, the readers, that John and Jamie are back to being friends, irrespective of their different situations. I think I can chalk this one up to “artistic licence”

However, I do have a small niggling point about the scene in SP. In SP Lord John starts the verbal chess game using the Torremolinos Gambit, Jamie replies with the second move, and John reflects that it is the same opening he used on that disastrous night in Ardsmuir.
BUT, in Voyager, John actually used the Torremolinos opening a few nights before he made advances to Jamie, and Jamie was surprised by the strategy (which John said Hal had taught him), and the fact that John won that game of chess, which led to their conversation about the events at Carryarrick Pass and Jamie admitting how much he feels for Claire.
It is several days later that John dresses carefully, arranges a dinner that includes greens, serves sherry in Waterford crystal and put his hand on Jamie’s during their game of chess. We are not told what the opening sequence was, but surely John would not use the same chess opening he had just used a few days previously, or if he did, Jamie would have been aware of it and not so absorbed in the game.
So, all this rambling is to say that I think the implications given to the term “Torremolinos Gambit” in SP are not quite right.


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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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Really interesting analysis, DLT. I had never thought all that through before, but now that you did, it does seem strange. :thinking:

I would guess that the mistake about the Torremolinos Gambit not being that night could just be a memory lapse (on John's part), but fitting in Jamie's first chess move seems a bit more problematic.

My memory of all the details is too fuzzy to have much more to add, but I enjoyed reading your comment.


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 Post subject: Re: SP: Chapter 43: Succession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:28 pm 
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repoman wrote:
Thinking about John and Jamie, IMO they end well with Jamie holding John's horse and whispering a chess move to him. It's a guy's final scene - no flowery speech or long lingering looks, just an acknowledgement.


:agree:

I don't think we should expect more from John or Jamie. Neither one of them are demonstrative type individuals.

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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:15 am 
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Jerry: I love-love-love your new avatar!

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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:21 am 
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Laura wrote:
Jerry: I love-love-love your new avatar!

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Thank you! I stole the idea from sassenach who uses her coffee mug as her avatar.

And I also received an OBC t-shirt the next day after the mug came. I'm all decked out to be a good OBC forum member! Thank you for all your hard work with the store!

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"Aye, I believe ye, Sassenach. But it would ha' been a good deal easier if you'd only been a witch."


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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 10:44 am 
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Clan Fraser Veteran

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Back to the book, I wonder if DG will address these discrepancies in OCII? Or is this outside the scope since it involves Voyager? I would really like to see revised editions of the whole Outlander collection. I suppose that window of opportunity closed when the 20th Anniversary edition was published?

I do dream about the collected works of Diana Gabaldon, in leather, under my Christmas tree. :bagpipe:

I agree that DG needs our help with editing. :lol: But then, by the time we finish dissecting we may have totally missed the publisher's deadline. :bigsmile:


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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:38 am 
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Clan Fraser
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I have been thinking again about these chess scenes, trying to find a way so that we can have both of them (!) and I have an idea.
The Voyager scene happens while we are learning of Jamie's final years at Helwater. For the purpose of Voyager (ie, in order to get on with the main story - how he got to Edinburgh, was reunited with Claire etc) we just need to know that Jamie stayed at Helwater until people began to comment on Willie's likeness to him, and that he left Helwater as a friend to John. In other words, the chess scene in that book is a way to show us that Jamie accepted John as a friend.
The chess scene in SP happens after their mission to get Siverley and is initiated by John, not to rekindle a friendship, but, IMO, to regain the relationship they had developed as equals during their jaunts around Ireland and London.
So, considering the above two motives, both chess scenes work. When John and Jamie meet again briefly at the end of Voyager, and again in Drums, Jamie considers John a friend and John considers Jamie both a friend and an equal.
I think that in my mind (in spite of my passion for chronological accuracy), I can accept both scenes (or at least, the symbolism of both scenes.)


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 Post subject: Re: Scottish Prisoner: ch43: Succession
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:20 am 
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Not to hijack the thread but is my new avatar showing up? It's an OBC coffee mug. DLT advises by private message that my old avatar, a piece of tartan, is still showing up in this thread. Can everyone see the mug? I'm wondering if her browser is not refreshing or something similar. Or perhaps a moderator can advise that there's a bug in the system. I had a difficult time getting the new avatar to "stick." :wall:

Thanks.

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"Aye, I believe ye, Sassenach. But it would ha' been a good deal easier if you'd only been a witch."


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