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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ramsom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 9:48 am 
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lindhous wrote:
Did anyone else wonder if he was going to make it? I started wondering if she'd consider going back through the stones to go get some antibiotics for him to come back with (but then she'd risk not being able to come back, etc....)!

While reading Chapter 36 I felt that perhaps Jamie wasn't going to make it, but then he was rescued and my hope was renewed. In this chapter with Jamie continuing to spiral and then rejecting Claire... :cry: I again started thinking bad thoughts like: perhaps DGs idea of a happy ending would be to reunite Frank and Claire. :cry: As horrible as that thought was, it did seem plausible at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ramsom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2010 12:30 pm 
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Clan Fraser
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Sawney, you are right. That was plausible. I thought what a waste of a great character that would be.

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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ramsom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:26 am 
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Relieved.... thats what I can feel now, he's on the mend, they are still together, past three months of living torture. A new day must come, the darkness and despair is past! Even though I know its a book and I have read it before, I could not help being present with Jamie and Claire through Wentworth to the Abbey - my heart was sick and I cried way too much. Now I am able to say, On to the next challenge for J&C, Je suis prest!

Splendid job Pauline!

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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 2:35 am 
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Yes, I also found it very difficult to read. In fact, I couldn't believe what I was reading! I couldn't believe that Jamie was asking for Claire out of his life. My heart was pounding and my eyes were very misty. Thank you Pauline for the synopsis of the chapter. It cleared up some parts for me. I also needed to re-read the "exorcizing" of Jamie. I wasn't quite sure that that was in fact happening. But I think I was confused due to the part where Claire is in her room trying to summon spirits prior to returning to Jamie. Did anyone else find this a bit confusing or am I the only slow one who didn't see the connection?


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:02 pm 
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It took my 3rd rekilt (reread) of OL until I *got* what Claire was doing totally. In part because I have a tendency to do a 1st read through really fast to find out what happens next. But it took till the 3rd to get *most* of the nuances.

I won't tell you how many times I've reread it now.<BG>


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:16 pm 
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You aren't the only one, Yolie!

Just like crzyqmom, it took me several v.e.r.y. slow reads to really comprehend the action and nuance in the scene. Diana is so good at giving clues without being blatant. It is all very subtle, but it is all there.

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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:09 pm 
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:aargh:
Okay. I read and re-read that part a few times but still didn't see a concrete connection. I am new to the Outlander series and I'm now reading for the first time Dragonfly. I don't want to put that book down just yet, so perhaps in my next go-around with Outlander I can pick up the connection.
Hmmm, now I am very curious!
Thanks Pauline and crzyqmom :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:00 am 
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Yolie ~ you are speaking of the section where Claire is in her room with the bowl summoning spirits? I think I can explain the connections:

The chapter opens with Jamie telling Claire about how he didn't struggle against Randall. Jamie is no longer able to separate touching Claire with what happened with Randall, so asks Claire to go back through the stones.

In section three, Claire seeks help from God via the Book of Job. She focuses on this passage: If there is a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth." So, who will be Jamie's interpreter? Who will show Jamie his uprightness? He needs to see he is without sin so that he may begin the process of forgiveness.

Later in the same section, Claire remembers Father Anselm's words: The conditions of sin are these: first, you must give your full consent to it ... and the conditions of grace as well. Jamie's acquiescence to Randall's torture does not equal consent. Additionally, Jamie is incredibly troubled because he was aroused by Randall, but against his will. He did not consent to this arousal, nor the completion of the act of sex.

The scene where Claire actually begins to summon a ghost (tpb 592) is really short. In it, she mimics what Geillie did earlier in the book, when she was trying to get Claire to give her information. In this scene, the ghost she is summoning is that of Jack Randall and of Frank. I had spent the hour in my chamber, hovering over my pool of reflection, conjuring memories. Of Black Jack Randall and of Frank, his six-times-great-grandson.

When she ransoms Jamie's soul later in the chapter, she summons the voice and actions of Jack (with a little bit of Frank thrown in) so that she can give Jamie the chance to fight back. If he can fight ~ which he would not allow himself to do with Jack ~ then she can return his power to him. If Jamie can have an outlet for the rage he is holding inside, and accept his powerlessness during his time with Randall is only temporary, then he can begin to forgive himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:19 pm 
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Wow Laura! I haven't reread Outlander in a while, so I didn't remember the details, but I am sure I never put it all together in my head that clearly. Thanks so much for the whole explanation. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:55 pm 
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Thank you, Laura, for this explanation. To me it is a very complex situation, and even after reading it a couple of times (and listeniing on audiobook), I still did not have any better understanding. Your explanation goes a long way in helping me to see this whole scene/situation more clearly. :bow:
~~Chrisstine

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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:30 am 
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OK, I get it a bit more! Thank you so much, Laura. At first, I felt that little scene (the summoning spirits water pool part) a bit too supernatural and I didn't accept it, but then again what else should I expect, right? It's only about time-traveling! Hahaha!
Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:16 pm 
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Well.... it is a bit supernatural if looked at from the perspective that Geillie used the same technique of the reflecting pool. On the flip side, it could be viewed as Claire extending her pleas for guidance from earlier in the chapel. Her focus was to act as the mediator between Jamie and God to release his soul from the torture of sin. She used the resources before her: her memories of BJR and Frank, her knowledge of BJR's torture, opium, and herbs (lavender). A popular meditation technique is to stare into a flame to focus the mind during meditation. Claire was using the reflecting pool to focus her mind on the meditation/prayer in seeking guidance and strength for her upcoming battle.

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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Laura wrote:
The chapter opens with Jamie telling Claire about how he didn't struggle against Randall. Jamie is no longer able to separate touching Claire with what happened with Randall, so asks Claire to go back through the stones.
In section three, Claire seeks help from God via the Book of Job. She focuses on this passage: If there is a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have a ransom. His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth." So, who will be Jamie's interpreter who will show Jamie his uprightness? He needs to see he is without sin so that he may begin the process of forgiveness.

Later in the same section, Claire remembers Father Anselm's words: The conditions of sin are these: first, you must give your full consent to it ... and the conditions of grace as well. Jamie's acquiescence to Randall's torture does not equal consent. Additionally, Jamie is incredibly troubled because he was aroused by Randall, but against his will. He did not consent to this arousal and completion of the act of sex.

The scene where Claire actually begins to summon a ghost (tpb 592) is really short. In it, she mimics what Geillie did earlier in the book, when she was trying to get Claire to give her information. In this scene, the ghost she is summoning is that of Jack Randall and of Frank. I had spent the hour in my chamber, hovering over my pool of reflection, conjuring memories. Of Black Jack Randall and of Frank, his six-times-great-grandson.

When she ransoms Jamie's soul later in the chapter, she summons the voice and actions of Jack (with a little bit of Frank thrown in) so that she can give Jamie the chance to fight back. If he can fight ~ which he would not allow himself to do with Jack ~ then she can return his power to him. If Jamie can have an outlet for the rage he is holding inside, and accept his powerlessness during his time with Randall is only temporary, then he can begin to forgive himself.

Great post Laura. Thank you!


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:21 am 
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Ahhhh. Even more clarity! Thank you, Laura. You're good! :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: Ch 39 - To Ransom a Man's Soul
PostPosted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:39 am 
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Laura wrote:
When she ransoms Jamie's soul later in the chapter, she summons the voice and actions of Jack (with a little bit of Frank thrown in) so that she can give Jamie the chance to fight back. If he can fight ~ which he would not allow himself to do with Jack ~ then she can return his power to him. If Jamie can have an outlet for the rage he is holding inside, and accept his powerlessness during his time with Randall is only temporary, then he can begin to forgive himself.


I am so glad Laura brought this up, because this is the crux of Jamie's sanity. He was caught in a really bizarre dilemma, the agreement he made with Randall in exchange for Claire's life and safety, did not allow him to fight or rebel. While all along every defiling act perpetrated on him was designed to make Jamie reject and fight it. He sacrificed for love but in turn this forced passivity made him hate himself, Jamie's soul was boiling in a cauldron of love for his wife, hatred for his nemesis and self disgust for the physical responses forced upon him. The entire episode at Wentworth was utterly poisonous to Jamie's spirit, the past history between him and Randall was enough to merit Jamie killing him, with the present circumstances and his inability to act had shredded Jamie's soul. Claire gives Jamie the release his spirit was desperate for, without it he would have fully perished.

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