his thread is to talk about the first book of the series A Song of Ice and Fire by George RR Martin.

To keep this forum spoiler free, please only discuss this book.

I see Catelyn as a sympathetic character, but for one thing: her deep hostility towards Jon Snow. I understand it is wounding to one's pride to present your new husband with a firstborn son only to find that he also has a b*st*rd son of about the same age. But Ned brought him home to raise and she should have long since gotten over it and at least been somewhat nurturing to the poor motherless kid. It's not like she had long been promised to Ned; he stepped in to marry her after her intended, his older brother, was murdered. Ned even allowed that one of their sons be a namesake of the older brother. So why the bitterness and rage toward Jon, which she makes no attempt to hide? Jon's in his mid teens and she's still glaring at him with hatred and resisting his attempts to comfort the paralyzed Bran by telling Jon it should have been him? Is this one ugly flaw in an otherwise good hearted soul or was Catelyn not as noble as she presented herself to be?

aqua, I completely agree. I never quite figured out why she hated him so much. The circumstances of his birth are not his fault. It seems like her maternal nature would take over but it never does. I really like Jon Snow and felt bad that he was largely exiled to the Wall.

I also love Arya and am not fond of Sansa - who seems little more than a spoiled brat. Could Arya be a bit more feminine - sure - but most of us could. I like that she is rough and tumble. I mean she is just a kid after all.

I don't understand Catelyn's position on Jon Snow either. In some way, I think GRRM is trying to show that cultural prejudice through Catelyn. Even though she is kind and noble, she is still part of a landed class that looks down upon certain members of society, like b*st*rds, dwarves and wildlings...

As for Arya and Sansa, I sort of feel the reverse. Arya is courageous and has a really distinct personality; she really knows who she is. I think as readers, we are drawn to the strong characters.
Sansa is young, naive and selfish. But at her age, I probably acted just like that. Sansa understands that she is to be a Lady and maybe she is trying to live up to those expectations. If the greatest accomplishment for a lady of that time was to marry well- and Sansa is slated to be Queen- then she has really accomplished something. But I think she is blind to the consequences and sacrifices that marrying Jeoff entails.

Great point, Lady Ross. Her unexpected betrothal to the Prince turned her expectations of herself and those around her up a number of notches. She seemed to have taken Catelyn's attitude towards Jon Snow to heart, while Arya remained close to him, like her brothers were. I got the impression that Arya spent a lot more time with her brothers than Sansa did, by choice, and see her maybe becoming a Warrior Queen, one day, like Nymeria. It was cool that she named her direwolf Nymeria, and that Ned Stark helped her pursue her dreams of being a sword dancer.

Arya is much more savvy than her older sister which is interesting. Let's not forget that Sansa lied about Ned and ultimately got him killed then - not that they were trying to find a reason to kill him.

What about Robert? What a bizarre king. I never quite figured out why...

Sansa comes off as shallow and self centered (even for an adolescent girl ). That day on the riverbank in which Joff was threatening to Arya and was bitten by her direwolf, he showed himself to be not just spoiled but possessed of an evil streak of cruelty. He revels and gloats in his cruel nature, but Sansa chose not to see it until her father paid the ultimate price. I don't think anyone else, especially Arya and Ned, failed to see that about Joff right away. Sansa was willing to throw her family under the bus so as not miss her chance to play the princess to his prince.

Robert made a great warrior but a bad king. Once he became secure on the throne, he overindulged (to put it mildly) in wine, women and song (and a LOT of food). To be gutted by a boar is somehow symbolic of his undoing.

I was was really into HBO's Game of Thrones... Imagine my shock when EVERY story line (and more then a few main characters) I cared about met with a horrible end. Seriously, WTH?

Unfortunately I had bought the audible book to take with me on vacation - wasted 2 credits - but I will never finish it. I'm frankly MAD that there were not more reviews that had honest warnings about the... how to put it.... lack of traditional story elements. Like, a heroes journey, or even a beginning, middle and end. And then there is the authors lack of motivation to finish the second half of a book he promised 5 years ago!

I REALLY wish I had done some research before I started the series. Now that I have, I'm quite frankly SHOCKED that so many people seem to like it.

I could rant on and on, but I feel bad for jumping in here if you all are big fans...

So, question. Are you all just getting into the series for the first time? If so, are you aware of the propensity that the author has to killing characters? And, if you're re-reading, I'm wondering what the attraction is to a story with so many dead end characters and story lines?

Personally, I really HATE stories that kill off the hero in the end. (I don't escape into a fantasy to be depressed.) But my BF has no such restrictions.. Yet even he swore off the series after we did a little more research on it.

He really liked the relationship between Khal Drogo and Daenerys, and stupid us, we thought that since they were main characters and you were clearly supposed to like them, that they would last a little longer. Then, of course, there was Ned. THAT was the real deal-killer.

After that I googled the series... yeah, just more of the same to look forward to... Characters coming and going, ad nauseum. I was SO disappointed, cause I REALLY loved it for awhile... Before I realized that there are no heroes or main characters. Just a bloody journey that the author may never even finish.

Captivated, I'm really sorry you don't like the first book. I definitely see your opinion and you seem very angry- but in the end, these books represent the author's vision. This isn't LOTR or OL- this series is about more than a hero. Really, I think it is about the struggle between light/dark, good/evil. The Series is called "A Song of Ice and Fire" and I think it represents the epic battle between the two extremes. I view the series as the battle to find middle ground. It could also be viewed as a constant battle toward the middle ground. Either way, it isn't about a single hero or even a handful of heroes.

I personally love the series, and I think the rotation of characters makes the series more interesting and more realistic. This is a series about medieval war. And in Medieval times, people died often and young. If you are expecting a main hero, this isn't the series. But I do think there are a lot of heroic moments, a lot of special moments. And I find the narration very rich and compelling. That is why I like the series a lot. If you continue, you'll see a lot of growth in certain characters, and new characters emerge.

I don't subscribe to the belief that there HAS to be a hero to be a good book or even that the hero has to win in the end. I'd rather read something that was interesting and made me think than read something with a happy end. And really, is this that much different that OL? Yes, Jamie and Claire live (for now) but the characters around them suffer tremendously, and some heroes do die, like Murtagh.

All I can say is that I enjoy the books immensely, and hope that others will fill in here about it.

Thank you, Lady Ross, for explaining it so well! I was expecting a LOTR-type hero's journey featuring the Starks and was shocked and disillusioned about the story when Bran was pushed out the window and paralyzed. I put the book down for a couple of weeks and was not sure if I'd keep reading. I knew then that this would be a story in which bad things would happen to good people, even kids! But I also recognized that I was in the hands of a master storyteller so I took a deep breath and decided to enjoy the story no matter where it took me. I would rather certain Ice & Fire characters had not been killed off (just as I'd rather Jamie and Claire been together those 20 years instead of slogging through unsatisfactory half-lives), but the story is rich with depth and meaning. I am enjoying it as the author presents it to us. George R.R. Martin recently said he wants the story to be anything but predictable and comfortable...keep 'em on the edge of their seats. He has certainly succeeded at that!

Count me in as an "on the edge of my seat" fan, as well, Aquagirl. That is a very good way of describing this series, and, like Lady Ross, am a fan of books with characters and storylines that evolve in different ways.

Having said that, I can empathize with you, Captivated! I came new to this series, having bought Book 1 in anticipation of the HBO series starting, but didn't have a chance to finish it before the season started. I began reading it and trying to stay on the same pace with the book and the tv series, then got ahead of myself with the tv series. I have to say, I went into a bit of a mourning period over Ned Stark, _and_ Sean Bean! Losing the character in the books, and the actor in the series, I almost swore off of both versions of this story. Then, insult to injury, losing Khal Drogo/Jason Momoa as well , and Bran's accident was heartbreaking. After reading quite a few fan comments on the HBO boards, I found both people who swore not to watch the series on tv ever again right along with long-term fans of the books who said they'd thrown the books at the wall, then picked them up and started reading again. So, long story short, I kept reading and haven't looked back, with a healthy dose of skepticism about the characters' future, especially the ones I enjoy the most.

I just finished Dance with Dragons, and can understand the fans' pain who had to wait over 5 years for it to come out, I don't think I could've waited that long, but then again, I'm waiting for Book 8 in the Outlander series! Granted, it is much much more enjoyable to wait, while re-kilting and chatting with everyone on OBC about the series as the book is being written. I feel much the same with these threads for the books in the Fire and Ice series, but can completely understand how you feel about the constant change in characters...reading for enjoyment is the key, and not everything is everyone's cup of tea. It was great reading your post with your impressions on the series from your point of view, thanks so much for sharing it with us.

Captivated, I feel your pain but agree with those that loved it. My hubby and I both started reading in anticipation of the series and have found it provocative. He is a book ahead and I constantly ask him what is coming but he just says keep reading and I am!

Sometimes there is no HEA! One of my recent favorite books is by Linda Gillard - A Lifetime Burning. It is an amazing book with no HEA for anyone but it is still am amazing book.

I love that JRRMs characters are ever changing and evolving and honestly, I am fascinated that I can't predict what is next. Maybe we all need some surprises...

I had watched the tv series first before reading the book and am impressed that the series stayed so true to the book. So, reading the book afterwards I didn't feel the shock of anything that happened (unlike the 2nd book which I've just started). The story appeals to me in that it shows each character's good and bad side just like real life. It also has a way of showing how people make bad decisions based on their values and beliefs. For example, Ned knew that becoming a hand was a bad decision and taking half of his family was wrong also, but let his 'honor' dictate what his actions would be. He seemed to be more worried about saving honor than doing the right thing and in the process paid the price and put his daughters in a precarious situation. Sansa was a foolish girl but it seems that she is only 11 yrs old so what can you expect. She sees things through a child's eyes until her innocence is thoroughly trashed.

Arrya is a tomboy. Her father knows it and decides to shape it rather than stamp it out completely. While I agree with everyone on Catelyn's behavior towards Jon, wasn't Ned's putting him on the Wall just as bad! For all of his honor, I really didn't like him much, sorry.

I love the multi-dimensional characters in this series.

I wasn't a huge Ned fan, either. I liked him and I was compelled by his honesty. But he has serious flaws. Yes, he encouraged Arya but it is somewhat clear that he would rather she behaved in a more appropriate, ie ladylike fashion. I'm still waiting for more truths about Ned/Robert/Ned's sister to unfold. There is definitely something darker to his past than he let on, and perhaps Jon Snow's mother has something to do with it.

I forgot to mention that I really like Tyrion's character. Here's a person who has a physical defect and grows up in this ambitious family who could have been relagated him to the curb but he maintains his dignity and proves to be the most cunning of them all. He is a survivor and even though he is on the "bad guys" side, he manages to see every situation and make it right somehow. I was reading his chapter when the actor who plays him in the HBO series won the Golden Globe award and couldn't have been happier. When I'm reading the books and they get to his chapters, I always perk up and can't wait to see what happens.